Intro and Winchester 1885 BPCR Load Questions

[Wyoming Shooter]

Good morning gentlemen:

This is my first post. Thanks for the informative forum! I shoot IDPA, USPSA, and precision rifle competitions. I load jacketed and plated bullets in 9mm, 38/357, 40 S&W, 45 ACP, .243, and .308. I have a Dillon 550 for the handgun ammo and a Hornady single stage press for the rifle cartridges. I do not cast bullets, have no casting equipment, and have never loaded cast bullets. I just ordered a new Winchester (Miroku) 1885 BPCR in 45-70. I plan to shoot steel out to 600 yards with the 1885 using cast bullets and smokeless powder. Now for my questions:

1. What die set do y'all recommend? I've seen some references to the RCBS "Cowboy" dies.

2. Given the moderate to longish range I plan to shoot, what bullet do you recommend? This needs to be something I can order as I don't roll my own. I am considering the Oregon Trail 405 grain. Am I on roughly the right track?

3. Is there a reliable source for the ballistic coefficient (BCs) of cast bullets? I use the G7 BCs from Litz for my precision rifles. However, I haven't found that info for cast bullets.

4. I presently load H4350 and Varget for my precision rifles. Is there a generally-accepted "go to" powder for 45-70 with cast bullets? I also have a Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70 and would love something that will work well in both the Marlin and the BPCR.

5. Do y'all have a pet load that you recommend for my anticipated use at maximum 600? I'll be shooting only steel and paper so terminal ballistics are not a concern.

Thanks very much. ELN

[longranger]

The lever gun will require a flat nose bullet to run through the magazine/action and a shorter O.A.L, they can be picky about what bullet they like. The Win. BPCR rifle is going to be at it's best with case full B/P and a big bullet in the 500gr with target profile i.e. Creedmoor,Postell,.There are smokeless powders that will work well T.B. being one of them the Lyman 4th edition Cast Boolit book is worth the $25.00. You will be best served with 2 different bullets one for each gun.The 405 gr. bullet is good in the lever gun and just OK in the BPCR rifle.
Steve Garbes and Mike Venturinos BPCR Loading Primer book has a very good ballistics chart for cast boolits. That's my experience with those rifles. I am a bit of a purist with the BPCR rifles and only shoot B/P out of my Shiloh Sharps rifles. Others will be along and have more to offer.

[country gent]

Buffalo arms has a good selection of cast and swaged bullets. The old lyman 457125 normally performs good in most rifles. Alot is going to depend on twist rate in your barrel. I have had good results with te lyman 535 grn postell also. I believe Baco has both of these or copies of them in line up. Are you planning on Black Powder, substitute, or smokeless powders. Grease groove or paper patched bullets? For dies any good die set will work. I am currently using a meacham bushing die for both 45-70 and 45-90. WIth a few diffrent bushing you can adjust neck tension easily. I shoot alot of Paper Patched bullets out to 500 yds recently.
Here is my load for 45-70. Winchester cases, Annealed and trimmed primer pockets uniformed
Rem 9 1/2 primers, aluminum foil disc under primer
70 grns of 2f Goex can be dropped tubed or slow poured into case with a funnel
Napa rubber fiber wad, .060 thick cut .460 dia
Compressed with die .465 from case mouth.
3/16" grease cookie hand seated with a psper clip wire hole in the middle to release air.
.020 playing card wad hand seated. Leaves .250 for bullet to seat into case.
Baco 500 grn swaged money bullet .441 dia wrapped wet with 9# onion paper for .448- 449 dia. Patch is wet with lee sidie wax ( the water souluable) 3 parts water to 1 part water. Hand seated into unsized case. Case is sized around bullet and just snug in the case.
This load as shot very good in my 18 twist pendersoli.

[Gunlaker]

I did a little bit of smokeless shooting with my .45-70 Browning BPCR. It liked heavier bullets best and seemed to work well with SR-4759 which is an excellent cast bullet powder for the .45-70 when shooting at the upper end of black powder velocities. I only shot it to 200m so I don't know how well the smokeless load would do at longer range. I'd try the Postell bullet for starters, sized 0.001" over bore diameter.

If I wanted to get serious at shooting smokeless in .45-70 at longer ranges I'd try to find out what the sucessful Quigley shooters were doing. There are some of them that use smokeless.

Chris.

[NSB]

This is a great board for info on cast bullets so you're going to get some good advice here. There is another board dedicated to the type of rifle you are going to use and that board has a wealth of knowledge on shooting those types of guns in competition, etc. You might want to check out....

http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl

[Don McDowell]

We shoot the Saeco 645 bullet cast from 20-1 with good affect to 1000 yds from a Winchester 1885 bpcr.
You can use your 4895 and varget, but it's doubtful you'll find any loads with either of those that shoot as well as either 2f Olde Enysford blackpowder, or if one must use something other than real powder, Blackhorn 209 ignited with Federal magnum match rifle primers shoots amazingly well with no fouling control needed.
I prefer the hornady die set, with the addition of a Lyman M die with the proper diameter expander.

[MT Chambers]

Yup, for the Hiwall you'll need 20-1 or so cast bullets that are long and kinda pointed, like the Saeco mentioned, or Paul Jones, Postell etc, and lotsa black powder.......for the levergun you'll prolly need harder bullets for higher vel., flat point like the LBT series, or the countless copies, even on here with the group buys. For the levergun, Tom at Accurate molds makes great molds and lotsa designs, I'm not sure if he makes BPCR type molds.

[bigted]

a WARM WELCOME to this forum! ...

I also own one of the browning [same as the Winchester] bpcr rifles and love it a bunch. had a tough time getting it to shoot but once I set my thick headed stubborn brain aside and began to put into action what I was reading here ... I began to get good results.

1- get and use either Bullshop's NASA lube ... or get and use SPG lube. these either one will give superb results in either smokless or blackpowder loadings. the lube in these BPCR type boolits is imperative to the lube requirements in these deep rifled barrels.

2- the requirement of a good lead/tin mix is very tricky sometimes. I and a bunch use the lead from a feller here as a good casting lead but if you will be using ready to load boolits then I can recommend non as good as "Buffalo Arms" of Idaho. they have a great collection of cast and lubed boolits and they are very friendly to call and chat with about what you need for your requirements in a BPCR rifle.

3- your rifle will most probably have a short or non-existent throat ahead of the chamber proper. so you will find that your best loading will be with the boolit front band to engrave the rifling upon shutting the action. the 457125 Lyman boolit does pretty well in my rifle when I load the boolit so that the first grease groove is completely outta the case.

4- you will find that when shooting these relative slow rifles ...you will experience barrel lag time unlike anything else in modern centerfire cartridges . this 'follow thru' is critical with all shooting but imperative in these rifles. the boolit typically is going around 1100 to 1300 FPS with a heavy boolit and thus takes a bunch of time to exit the barrel compared to modern type cartridges. you will develop a firm and holding grip on your rifle to be consistent with it.

5- IF you go with blackpowder ... you will definitely develop a new experience and so addictive that you may never recover. it has a way to envelope your very soul and invade every brain cell with its insidious and addictive personality. you very well may find yourself making a case in your brain as to the why of selling your other rifles to enable you to buy other action types and fairly exotic caliber's to add to your sick addiction. DONT SAY LATER THAT YOU HAVE NOT BEEN WARNED ...

again WELCOME and do stick around and report your success with this new style shooting. have fun!!!

get some good reading reference type books such as the previously mentioned SPG handloading primer ... or Lyman cast bullet handbook and other books that provide great reading and covers a bunch of info that is all contained in the books for later reference. Venturino's book "loading and shooting Buffalo rifles" is another great book that covers the beginnings of shooting these BPCR type rifles and loads in almost all of the more popular chambering's.

[EDG]

Using plain based lead bullets limits your pressure and velocity to about black powder levels.
The 1885 BPCR will do its best at 600 yards with bullets near 500 grains with a muzzle velocity of about 1100 fps to 1300 fps.
Smokeless powders to approximate BP pressures and velocities are
IMR 4227, Accurate 5744 and IMR SR4759.
I use about 25 grains of SR4759 because it burns clean and this powder takes up a lot of space in the case. With lighter loads I had zombies (unburned grains of powder)
There are both faster and slower powders listed in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook.

[Nobade]

Might check with Bullshop for bullets:
http://www.bullshop.gunloads.com/

As for powder, either Varget or 4350 work well in the 45-70. I am primarily a black powder/paper patch guy too, but recently played with some IMR4227/WC860 duplex loads in my c.Sharps rifle that were easily holding a 6 inch group on steel at 500M. So smokeless will get the job done, it's just not as interesting as black!

As for B.C., the G7 form doesn't apply to cast bullets. Use the G1 and it will fit very closely to most cast bullet shapes. I never worry about it much myself, just shoot at the distance you want and see what the sight setting needs to be. The main thing I care about regarding B.C. is how much flatter my paper patch bullets fly compared to identically shaped grease groove ones. At 500M or so it's not much different, but get out really far like 1500M and it becomes very significant.

On dies, lots of them work fine. The RCBS Cowboy ones are about as good as it gets without going custom and would certainly be a good choice.

Loads? Plenty! 45-70 will burn pretty much any gunpowder you can find in the proper amounts. Much easier than those modern cases! What you are going to want to do is find something that is powerful enough to do what you want, not so powerful you can't sit behind it, and accurate enough to get the job done. Everybody can tell you what works for them, but in the end it's you and your rifle. But if you can boot a 500gr. bullet at 1200 - 1500 fps with MOA accuracy you'll be just fine. BTW, 600 yards isn't long range for a 45-70, it's just starting to get interesting there!

-Nobade

[Wyoming Shooter]

Gentlemen - Thanks so much for the replies. I will adopt your suggestions and report back with the results. I enjoy learning and look forward to the challenge. With best regards from the Big Empty, ELN.

[Wyoming Shooter]

Gentlemen: Thanks again for the benefit of your experience. I now have in hand: the Winchester 1885 BPCR, 200 Starline 45-70 brass, RCBS dies, IMR SR4759 powder, Fed 210M primers, Texas Mac's excellent book, the Venturino book, and the Lyman book. I'm waiting for delivery of the Postell 535 grain bullets.

Today's question relates to the sights. I anticipate shooting paper and steel out (initially) to 600 yards. Which front sight insert and which rear sight disc do you recommend? Although I suspect that some of the choice may boil down to personal preference, I'm trying to shorten my learning curve. Thanks again. From the Big Empty, ELN

[Don McDowell]

No way to tell you which insert will work the best. Your eye is the only one that can tell you that.

[Wyoming Shooter]

Gentlemen - Thank you for all your help. I've been loading the 535 Gr. Postell bullet, 27 grains of IMR SR4759, Fed 210M primers, and Starline brass. Today's chrono session at 5280 ft. ASL and approximately 47 degrees F gave the following results: Avg 1383, SD 9, ES 46. I'm happy with this load. I today switched to the crosshair front sight insert and found better accuracy than I had with the post. My rifle needs a trigger job and the shooter needs some experience with these old-fangled iron sights. More to follow. From the Big Empty, ELN.

[EDG]

Wyoming
If you use an 8" round black bull at 100 yards with a Lyman #17 lollipop aperture to match you will be able to shoot groups comparable to a scope off a bench.

I forgot to mention in my earlier post that Sagebrush Shooters Supply sells some decent but expensive 45 cal bullets in the most popular styles. http://www.sageoutfitters.com/bullets.html

[Gunlaker]

You'll probably do best with front and rear apertures. Don't mak the mistake of selecting a front aperture that is too tight on the aiming black. You want a fair bit of space between the annulus ring and the bull. The rear sight is the one you want to choke down a bit. Jim Owens has a nice book that has a section on shooting with aperture sights. It's cheap and worth a lot more than the price.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Blackpowder and several other smokeless , along with Blackhorn 209 will give you much smaller spreads than what your current load is giving.
As you have seen different front aperatures work better for some things than others. It boils down to what your eyes and mind can hold the same hold on the target for each shot..
The main thing is that you are satisified with how things are working.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I have a Winchester 50-90 Sharps made by Miraku in Japan for Browning. I equipped it with a set of Kelly Soule sights front and rear. In the globe I use a lollipop with the hole in the sucker part. Using a 695 gr Creedmoore boolit (handcast) over 103 Gr of Swiss 1 1/2 powder, with a .60 fibre wad and lubed with a decent BP lube and Starline cases I am having ball with it.

It kicks like an angry mule but with a decent shoulder pad I can fire off 50 rounds and not have a sore shoulder the next day. I do fudge by using a stand up shooting rest instead of sitting down. Standing up allow more of the recoil to be dissipated by my whole body rather than just the shoulder. I am hitting a steel target of 12" x 18" at 355 yds on a very regular basis. The velocity is about 1200 to 1250 FPS and if I do my part I have a very satisfying day mostly.

It certainly attracts a lot of attention on the firing line. The Kelly Soule sights are gorgeous and really stand proud over the deep bluing on the octagonal barrel of this very nice looking large rifle. If I had another $4,000 to spend I would get another in 45-90 but with the costs involved in another caliber it is just too much for me. I would rather spend the money on a decent trolling motor for my Kayak and decent trailer to haul it around with along with a small PU instead of my '90 Honda Accord upon which the kayak is mounted. I am just getting too old to be picking up the kayak and putting it on the roof etc. Besides when the kayak is on the roof my gas mileage drops a ton from 26 down the teens. I am thinking about a tent trailer and putting the kayak on top of the trailer etc. I could put my Triumph Speedmaster in the PU bed and have cheap transportation wherever I go.

This combo would allow me to escape this hellhole in the summer and find some decent pond and stream fishing up North in Iowa and such. There are some very nice RV campgrounds there with direct access to the Cedar River that are very inexpensive. Sgt. Rambo and I could head North and East in May and return in late September and avoid the miseries of a summer spent in Las Vegas where it can and will hit 115 during the day.

I could even head back to upstate NY and visit with friends and family and not be a burden as I would live in the trailer etc. I have some living friends still on Long Island and I would even like to meet and spend some time with others in way upstate NY and Vermont. With a decent electric motor I could really enjoy the Lamoille and Winooski rivers in the Green Mountains of Vermont and maybe even in the St. Lawrence River along the Canadian border. Quite a change from Las Vegas in the summer.

[welder85]

Any 1885 38-exp shooters?

[bigted]

delete a double post.