358 win & BP??

[59sharps]

browning mod 81.358 win. RCBS #35 -200 FN GC. Goex 3fffg. anyone try this yet? what is a good starting point load? I Just put some smokeless test loads w/ Varget together. THe few left over cases and can of 3 fff on the corner of the bench are just dieing to get together!

[Don McDowell]

Treat it about like any other bottlenecked case, fill the case about halfway up the neck compress the powder and seat the bullet so that the bullet base does not go below the base of the neck.

[John Boy]

Treat it about like any other bottlenecked case, fill the case about halfway up the neck compress the powder and seat the bullet so that the bullet base does not go below the base of the neck.

Don, I have never heard or read how to charge unknown bottle neck cases, ie the 358. I do know bullet bases don't go below the bottom of the neck on a shouldered case
I have been pondering what to do with the charges for my new Schuetzen rifle that is a bottleneck 9.15x47R blackpowder cartridge designed in 1880 that has ZERO loading data for it. That be neither black or smokeless.
In fact, I wanted to buy a loaded round from a collector - NADA from anyone and only know of one other 9.15x47R rifle. We are in the process designing/matching the bullet from the catalog to our chamber casts based on a 1914 German bullet catalog page that has the stop ring bullet on it

[Don McDowell]

John I'ld do a chamber cast, dollars to donuts that thing is meant to shoot patched. If nothing else just get a good bore measurement and go with a slick about .004 under , and some 9 # onionskin....
I'ld also think that much like the 38-55 KIK 1.5 might work like a champ in that new rifle of yours.
Ya also might want to pick Leadpots brain on that cartridge...

I'm also thinking some of those schuetzen guys lurking around the slugguns and muzzleloaders page , may have some good input for you.

[John Boy]

Don, I've done a chamber cast ... from the leade the bore tapers from 378 to 375. This coincides with the stop ring on the old German catalog bullet picture with a stop ring of 0.3779. The bullet base is 374 and is 0.787" long
Then at the muzzle end the bore is 355/371. So somewhere after the breech, the bore is tapered
* None of the metric bullet calibers in the German catalog are PP. They are either straight sided or stop ring
* I have found only one picture of the 9.5X47R loaded round ... COTW. The bullet is not paper patched

I looked at every category on the slug gun/ML forum and no one even mentioned a metric caliber. The folks on ASSRA are the metric Schuetzen folks including Biggi from Germany that has the most informative Schuetzen website one would want - is a widely known Schuetzen shooter in German & Bavaria and has contacts galore. No information or a current 9.5x47R bullet or mold in Germany.
My issue is there are only 2 of us on ASSRA that have 9.5X47R caliber rifles - Wayne Stiles, ASSRA Officer and me. A fellow ASSRA member has the ballistics software to design bullets and we have come up with a preliminary design based on the German catalog bullet dimensions and matching it to our rifle chambers. Believe with a final bullet drawing, Jim at BACO is the source for a custom stop ring mold. BACO has an 8.15X46R mold and can bump up the dimensions for the cherry because the bullet has round nose radius. Accurate uses CAD and can't do round noses, only metplats

So from a paper catalog picture with dimensions to a detailed drawing we are in the ballpark except I would like the 4th Ace - some one with a loaded round in this caliber or THE ORIGINAL BULLET. I've even searched Wyoming Schuetzen Union and German sites related to the caliber - NADA

At this point, I have a complete rifle-brass-dies but no stop ring bullet coinciding with the chamber cast and tapered bore

[Don McDowell]

If accurate will make you a bullet the diameter you want, I'ld sure go for it, round nose be danged. The two Accurate moulds I've bought have been the best mould purchases I've made in quite sometime. Both bullets extremely well with the smallest meplat he can put on them.
You might also want to contact Bernie at Old West Moulds and visit with him a bit about making you a set of blocks
But in the meantime I still wouldn't hesitate to try some .370 or there abouts slicks in the rifle.
You'ld have to ask on either of the boards, after all it's not a common cartridge by anymeans, but there are folks out there with experience that don't spend alot of time pounding their keyboards....

[Don McDowell]

John did you catch the part in COTW that said the cartridge is interchangable with the Martini cartridge of the same name? Might be an easier route to find cases, bullets etc...

[John Boy]

Might be an easier route to find cases, bullets etc...

Don, the bullet is the only item to finish. Have and they are correct:
* Bertram cases - all 80 left for sale in the US
* 3 die set from CH4D
Barnes (died in 1992) and Skinner have been known to have errors in their COTW. For this caliber, they say it's a 175gr bullet. In the German bullet catalog - the 9.5 bullet is 203gr and the software calculated it to 204 and 206, depending whether the stop ring is a half or full band

[Don McDowell]

I figure most of the ballbaby whinybutt stuff about Barnes etc, in the COTW being wrong, is pretty much just internet myth. Sorta like the same ones that say Roberts didn't know what he was talking about. Have always wonder why the ones saying COTW is wrong don't publish their own book with the "real" facts...
By they by, my COTW was published a few years before Barnes died....
Anyway looking at the drawing those guys posted in that link I provided you, and thinking about your"tapered" chamber,,, if that's not a paper patch chamber there probably never has been one. So I would see about getting a 38-55 bullet with a tapered driving band for a greaser, or as has been mentioned before some 9# onionskin and a slick,, and go chugging right along with shooting the ol girl.

[59sharps]

I see I,m getting hijacked! Can we get back to the 358. I know about the 1/2 way up the neck. but was hoping someone may have a load the worked well for them. Looking for about 3" groups at 100yrds. don't want to spend a lot of time developing a load at this point.

[Don McDowell]

There's not going to be many people that take a high intensity cartridge like the 358 , strangle it with bp and then tell about it.
So it's the weekend , there's a few hours of daylight left, hopefully you'll let us know how it turned out by twilight.

[59sharps]

well not have time to play with it for atleast 2 -4 week my private range is 140 miles from here. our nationals are next week. then its get ready for our final skirmish for the season. and finish getting tuned for deer season. the BP in the 358 was a cureosity thing more than anything else.
So your ansewer ansewers my ??? thank you. I normaly do not shoot cast out of anything but my Civil War guns.

[bigted]

i believe i am with don here...only way to see what is possible is to play with it...isnt that what makes the best stories? just like when i loaded some bp in my 375 h&h...did it...bragged about it...never repeated the experiment just becouse i already got a powder hog in my 120 sharps so i backed down back to my 38-55 for the fun stuff at a bit less cost in lead n powder.

dont shoot cast in any but civil war guns??? wow you are really missin the boat!!! these are the home i been searchin for all my life and scuttling them along with the aid of the worlds best powder is just a bonus!!!...you gotta get out more sir!!!LOL

[John Boy]

THe few left over cases and can of 3 fff on the corner of the bench are just dieing to get together!

the BP in the 358 was a cureosity thing more than anything else.
So your ansewer ansewers my ??? thank you. I normaly do not shoot cast out of anything but my Civil War guns.

So much for "dieing to get together"