Checkmaker Problems

[tchepone]

OK all you Pat Marlin tool users, I seek solutions to my problem with a Checkmaker™ .40 caliber plain base gas check making tool.

No matter what "thin gauge" material I try to run through the die slot, it all jambs up. I am using coil material that is .625" wide. When I get the material to slide into the tool slot all seems well...until I punch the first check. The check punches fine but when I try to advance the strip for the next punch, it is wrinkled and jammed in the slot.

Here is what happens......when the punch cuts the disk and I return the press handle to lower the punch, the punch body drags on the strip and bends it down and twists it. When that happens the strip catches on the feed slot and will not allow one to advance or remove the strip. I have to rip the strip from the slot and clean it out. Pieces break off and lodge in the feed slot.
That is time consuming, say nothing of the frustration. I have tried polishing the slot with a diamond file, to no avail.
It works fine with the heavier gauge material but anything lighter than about .010" causes the hang-ups. It is especially bad with .004" to .007" material, (just the stuff needed for plain base checks). Maybe the strip material I am using is too narrow, and what is left after the disk is punched is too thin to have enough rigidity to hold the strip flat. I have tried the maximum width material that will fit into the slot and see if that cures the problem, (It did not).
I know it is not the fault of the material I'm using. I use many types and thicknesses' of aluminum, soft & half hard, as well as copper, soft & half hard. The jamming only happens with the thinner gauge materials.
I haven't been able to determined if it is a manufacturing defect in the tool or possible operator error, (I think not).

I have a standard Checkmaker™ tool in 32 caliber and a Freechex III tool in 40 caliber, neither of those give me any problem, only this Plain Base tool.

So, if anyone has a solution I would be appreciative of any suggestion. Thanks! Private message's also appreciated.......G

[fcvan]

I have the same thing happen to me and have tried several different things to overcome the problem. Lots of things worked, several worked well, one consistently worked very well - for me that is. I fold my aluminum beer can material to double thickness and feed the folded edge. When feeding the aluminum strip, I apply pressure laterally so the strip is taught between the near side of the entry slot and the far side of the exit slot. This makes sure the strip is centered as consistently as on can get. When I lower the handle I reduce the slight lateral pressure to help the ram break tension from the strip without bending the strip. This technique works without folding the strip over double but doesn't go as fast. I'm looking forward to hearing from others to see how they worked through this one. Frank

[HARRYMPOPE]

run your ram/punch all the way to the top and out of the body and file about a 1-5 degree angle on it.Close it good enough it just needs to be angled.it will now cut insteted of shear.Now your teeth wont rattle when you cut discs.YOu will be amazed.Erik Ohlen of HP mold service came up with the idea modified my tools to do this

[Gunslinger1911]

I had same issues with my 45PB.
First - make sure thee is no lip on the cutting edge of the punch - if there is, emery paper it smooth - don't want to shrink diameter, just get rid of any lip.
Second - make sure the shaft of the punch is smooth, (I mean REALLY smooth) 1000+ grit emery is your buddy !!!
Third - a little Bullplate on the shaft wouldn't hurt.

These should minimise the drag of the punch shaft on the material.

For some materials, I still get a little drag and slight bending - cut disk, lower punch, pull strip mabe 1/8 inch, just "kiss" the strip with the punch to push up the bend.

Good luck !

[RobS]

I had the same issue with my 45 PB checkmaker and I just used a thin metal cutting jigsaw blade to open up the Checkmaker slot so there was more material on both sides of the cutter (the thinner material doesn't bend down and kink that way). It didn't take much working by hand but did help a great deal. The jigsaw blade I used was a bit think at first due to the wave in the balde so I just took my hand grinder and ran it up and down the blade to take out the wave of the blade or straighten it so it freely fit in the checkmaker slot. I also learned as the others did that smoothing things out with some 400 grit wet/dry sand paper helped as well.

[M4bushy]

Buy a tool then need to modify it to work...interesting.

[tjones]

Sounds loose. Poor fit up. As described... a LEMON.
tj

[tchepone]

Thanks guys, all good suggestions. I had tried many of them before I posted.

fcvan: I have tried beer can material, the problem persisted. Also I buy coils of material from forum vendors because I don't care to cut up cans. I tried doubling my material, it helped some but was not a reliable solution. There may be differences between our tools so what works with your's may not necessarily work in mine.
Applying sideways pressure isn't consistent and doesn't seem to work reliably. The slot in my tool is about .665" wide. I have tried maximum width material that will fit through the slot and I still get wrinkling and jams.

HARRYMPOPE: Your solution sounds very plausible. I may try that. Have you experimented with angles greater than 5°? Did that solve the problem of distortion of the strip material when the ram is lowered for the next disc cut? I can see it taking less pressure to cut the disc, but my problem seems to stem from lowering the ram and it dragging on the material, causing the wrinkling. Also not enough support in the slot to keep the material sufficiently rigid.

Gunslinger: I did smooth the cutting edge of my punch but the problem continued. I did polish the shaft somewhat, perhaps not enough. I will try highly polishing the shaft of the punch.

RobS: I have already smoothed the slot with a diamond file and 600 grit paper. It did not eliminate the problem. Widening the slot also sounds plausible. Before I make such a modification I will want to check with Pat and see if he has any further suggestions. He does warrant his tool so I don't want to modify it beyond the smoothing.

The following is a reply I received from Pat before I posted my problem.
"One reason maybe strip width. Always cut it as wide as possible to feed through specially with thin metal. If thin metal is cut to narrow, it will not work.
If you do that with a beer can, it should work great. If not then there is something wrong.
Beer cans are pretty stiff. To soft of a thin material can be a problem.
Also sometimes with soft metal, you can cut a disk forward the strip a little and bring the ram back up to kiss the strip. That flattens it.
Anyway keep playing with it and we will figure it out."

M4bushy & tjones: I'm beginning to feel the same. My problem is with this plain base tool only. I do not have problems with the standard base PatMarlin tool or with my Freechex III tool.

I am surprised so many have had similar problems. It appears to be quite common. Perhaps we need to have some discussions with Pat about possible modifications.

One last comment, how thick is the slot on your tools? Mine was .025" before polishing and .027" after. Are tools available to cut slots in the 010"-012" range? A plain base gas check needs to be quite thin to avoid bullet base distortion so there is no need for a slot as thick as .027". Perhaps a thinner slot would provide better support for the material and would help hold it more rigid?

Thanks again for everyone's good suggestions!!

[tjones]

New, unused Freechex III 458 selling on ebay for about $75. for the next hours or so.

[RobS]

Nothing wrong with fit of the die; it is not loose and sloppy. The slot for the GC material I felt was a bit narrow (not height of slot) so I simply widened it with a few easy hand strokes of a metal cutting jigsaw blade. I don't think this entitles anything as being a LEMON!!! I've made many, many GC's already and not a hiccup and the tool will see the formation of thousands more.

[.30/30 Guy]

My experience is limited to the 35PB Checkmaker. I cannot guarantee that my experience can carry over to other calibers. However, I find that my 30, 35, and 44 caliber Checkmakers function the same. Between the 30, 35, 35PB, and 44 I have made in the range of 10,000 checks.

I am cutting disks different that Pat recommends. I love old reloading presses. I have six of them mounted on my reloading benches. None of them are modern enough to have compound leverage. I cut all of my disks with a Dunlop “H” press. The top plate is threaded for 1 ¼” bushings. I adjust the bushing and cutting die so I cut as close to the top of the stroke as possible. The cut disk ends up about 1/16” above the cutting position. It takes from 20 to 30 disks before they start coming out of the top of the die.

For 35PB I have used pop can material, 0.006” soft aluminum, 0.008” lith plate, and 0.010” copper. In my opinion the 0.010” copper is too thick for PB checks.
I cut strips moving from left to right. After cutting a disk I lower the ram and pull the strip with my right hand and push with my left hand. If the strip does not move I raise the ram and give the material a soft bump. Note that with the push/pull operation the cut hole will be somewhat offset from the cutting hole. By bumping the strip you will smooth out the edge of the strip that is hanging up. This works for me well over 95% of the time.

I have found that it helps to lubricate the top inch of the cutting ram with case lube.
Cutting pop can material strips is a real pain for me. It is difficult for me to get the strips flat and the same width using a paper cutter. I have found that for cutting disks out of pop can material I need to use three layers of material .

I really like the 0.006” material (I got this is cut strips from Yonky). Two strips cut better than one. The down side of this is the disks tend to stick together. My best results is to have my container of Imperial sizing wax available and put a light coat of it to the underside of each strip. The makes the disks easier to separate.

The 0.008” lith plate is great (I got this from JKH). I cut single layers. I have not tried this with two layers and the sizing wax.

Using the above procedures I am very pleased with my 35PB Checkmaker.

[tchepone]

30/30 Guy: Thank you for detailing your process!
I wish I had a press that would allow the cut to happen at the bottom of the press handle stroke to take better advantage of the compound leverage. That would also help with the jump one gets as the punch shears the disc from the material. This is not the case with my Rockchucker, I get the jump. But that I can live with. I may try putting an angle on the cutter punch as suggested by HARRYMPOPE. That should help with the jump. As he states "it will then cut, instead of shear".

You state that it takes 20-30 cuts before your disc's start to come out of the tool. I must be doing something different or wrong. The cutting punch of my tool extends out of the top of the tool on each and every stroke, about 1/16". The disc is laying on top of it and I remove it at each punch. Sometimes, because of the "jump" the disc will pop completely out of and off the the tool. This is why I wish the cut was made closer to the bottom of the handle stroke, where one has better control.
I have tried the "soft bump" method. It works some of the time, but the frequency of success is way too low.
I have tried many different materials. I have not had complete success with any. They all seem to get jammed in my tool, some worse than others. I purchase coils from Yonky and others and prefer that over cutting up cans.
I also lubricate the cutting ram, and have highly polished it with 1000 grit paper. Both seem to help, but do not completely eliminate the jamming. I have tried multiple layers, also not to my liking because they stick together. I have not tried lubricating one side of the material. I will give that a try!
I have tried various widths of material. The best success I have had is with strips that are tool slot width, minus about 2 thousands, but they jam about 40% of the time. I really think a thinner slot would help hold the material more rigid but I'll have to take that up with Pat. I don't know if widening the slot, as RobS suggested, will help. I plan to take that up with Pat also.
Thank you for the ideas and continued success with your tool. G

[30CAL-TEXAN]

This sounds very much like something that Pat addressed in one of the informational/directions threads. Harder materials tend to cut cleaner holes but are more difficult to cut and softer materials (or probably in this case thinner) cut easier but tend to deform the strip when retracting the ram. There is a very simple solution that doesn't require modification, just a change in your process.

When you lower the ram and the material drags on the punch - push or pull the strip just a tiny bit in either direction. Just enough so that the hole you just punched is off center but not so much that you jam the jagged edge of the material in the slot. Then raise the ram again but not with the force to punch through the material, just enough to "kiss" the jagged edge and bend it back flat. The strip will come right out with no problems.

Once you get this to work you will "get in the groove" so to speak and develop pace of making checks that will even surprise you. You will probably even find that the above process is not necessary every time once you have found your "groove"

One other thing that might make life easier is to clean the punch and inside of the die and put some lube on it. I used Bull plate because it was close and it worked fine. Kroil did the job as well but didn't seem to last as long, probably just because it was thinner. Just something to reduce the drag a little helps. This is also helpful if you ever run across some material that doesn't seem to want to let go of the forming die.

Keep at it; you will be making checks like a mad man in no time.

[.30/30 Guy]

tchepone: I thought that a Rockchucker has the 1 1/4" x 7/8" bushing for holding standard dies. Unscrew the bushing about half way and adjust the die/bushing so that the top of the cutting ram is just above the cutting slot.

If your press does not have the bushing you may consider cutting about 1/2" of the top of the ram so you can get the adjustment I have described above.

[RobS]

I was just playing around with my GC maker and once the disk is cut and tool is all the way up in the top position (ready to take the disk of the top of the cutter) run the ram up and down with short strokes 1/8" or up and down no lower than the top of the die housing. Doing this a few times will help to release the thinner material from the sides of the cutting rod.

[tchepone]

30/30 Guy: You're right, it does have a bushing....duh. I never had occasion to use it...forgot it was there. I'll give it a try. I assume you are talking about cutting .005"off the top of the PatMarlin ram? The top portion of my ram is .600" long. That will leave .100". That explains why you cut 20-30 disc's before they come out of the top of your tool. I'm sure you didn't mean to cut ½" off the Rockchucker!

Other's suggestions...you fellers must love diddling around with your tools. I don't have the patience to deal with all those processes. When I purchase a tool I expect it to work out of the box as it was intended too. I don't care to spend time trying to figure out how to MAKE it work. I prefer to spend my time shooting the boolits. Don't take that as a slight against how you do things. It's your tool and you are the only one who can use it to "your" satisfaction. If it makes you happy go for it. It's just not me. I DO APPRECIATE the suggestions, have tried all of them and found some I can use. That's the purpose of a forum like this. Different strokes for different folks.

BTW, Pat has gotten back to me and is sending another tool. If that one works the way it is intended. Then my thoughts "that there must be something wrong with the one I have" will be validated. Lets hope it does, so I can get on with making some 40 caliber plain base checks. I have many 180, 215 and 225 grain boolits that need testing. I'm curious to see what kind of accuracy I can obtain with plain base gas checks. Thanks again to everyone!

[.30/30 Guy]

tchepone: Do not cut any off the ram until you have tried unscrewing the bushing first. The bushing should give you enough adjustment so that you can cut at the very top of the stroke.

I screw my Checkmaker into the bushing 3 or 4 threads and raise the ram to the top position and check to see where the top is inrelation to the cutting slot. I unscrew the bushing until the top of the ram is about 1/16" above the cutting slot.

[PatMarlin]

Just found this thread here...

One thing I would like to point out is every invoice with a set of dies sold states:

"Your dies SHIP SIGNATURE CONFIRMATION, and are guaranteed to be spot on and work flawlessly. If there is any problem with them whatsoever PLEASE contact me right away, and don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions."

So I have no way to correct a problem if I don't know about it, and I need to hear about a problem to eliminate the one you have and resolve any future issues.

Can a set of dies be a "Lemon"? Well certainly. Every manufacturer has them. The design is not a lemon or I would be swamped by complaints of the 100's and 100's of PB dies out there.

There are good tips above and I do suggest cutting your strips as wide as possible with all of my dies. That's one reason a paper cutter is a good tool to use.

I have started to make my slots wider to accommodate soft metal better. Paper thin soft metal can cause a problem. This is one reason I suggest a customer try any metals with their dies before buying. Everything has it's limits.

Please contact me right away when you find an issue with your dies, and I will correct it.

Thank you for your kindness and business.

Happy shooting,

Pat ....

Patmarlins™ -Specialty Products for Casting and Reloading
West Coast Engineering
http://www.Patmarlins.com

[Duckdog]

One thing I had with my dies is that they had some scoring, or grooves in the cutter. I polished them up as much as I could, but they are still there. The dies do make very nice checks, though. I do not know if I did something or if there was a small burr on the female die.

I also took a Lee Classic Turret primer arm and removed the primer holder and it makes a better ejector for the checks on those turret presses. The one that was with the dies worked good too, but I like this just a bit better.

I stil have not found that thicker AL flashing in my area, but I think my local Menards has some listed that is .012". We'll see.

[PatMarlin]

Yea, I'm continually working to improve the finish of my dies. The main thing is that they work well.

I've come a long way from my first ones over 3 years ago.

I keep working to improve the product. But as with all things manufactured gremlins do get in the mix. Thankfully, that number has been extremely low.