45-70 Leading

[Red Sky]

Well, I finally got around to testing the boolits I started casting a couple weeks ago (my first run at this) out of my Marlin 1895. Result was disaster...I've been trying to remove the leading for the last 6 hours and there's still a decent bit left (probably down enough that shooting some jacketed stuff will clear the rest). Leading was heavy throughout the bore and some on the throat area. With all the internet talk of Choreboy pads making easy work of lead, I must say I wonder what sort of twisted definition of "easy" is being used.

Regardless of the cleaning process, however, I'd like to get down to solving the problem. I did a lot of reading about what does and does not cause leading, and what steps to take to prevent it. As such, I decided NOT to quench my Rotometals Hardball alloy (started with a premixed alloy to remove one variable, BHN 16). I left the boolits unsized as they dropped from the mold at .461", a size that every thread about the 1895 recommends. I used Lee Liquid Alox lube in what I thought to be plentiful quantity compared to the videos on the subject I found on Youtube. These were run at ~1525 fps with 33 grains of Accurate 5744, as this was an even amount for the only usable Lee dipper I had (.5cc used 5x per cartridge gets annoying and my set hasn't come in yet). I do not have a chronograph, so that fps and my guess at pressure of ~25k psi is via interpolation of load data.

I must have missed something, somewhere. 1525fps is probably on the hot side, but practically all of the commercial boolits are advertised as being good for up to 1600fps with the same BHN. Perhaps my alloy is not actually that hard (I have no tester)? Should I quench them for higher hardness (estimated around 28 from reports I have found)? Perhaps I did not use enough lube? There was no "lube star" at the muzzle, but nor was there a lead one - the lead was perfectly content to just clog my barrel to the point of shooting 20ft groups at 100yards. I literally had a couple shots hit the dirt well below the target stand, and I've NEVER been off the paper with this gun before.

Any help is appreciated. I've read some of the sticky guides here but nothing seems to stand out as an obvious answer, so I figured I would ask before stumbling myself into another weekend long cleaning job. Thanks!

[Plinkster]

Two things I would start with in this situation, the first is that too much of the Lee mule snot is not a good thing. At least in my 45 acp this is the case and I've read it multiple times so if you really want to use the liquid alox use so little that you can barely tell its there, 2 coats works good for me and I can't even see the first one. And the second is the speed, I have no idea if your numbers are right but lets assume they are. You would be at the very upper ceiling of what liquid alox is able to handle. I would recommend getting some of Lar's white label BAC, it should perform well for this application. Of course this means you'll have to pan lube or get a lube sizer or even hand lube. Your alloy hardness should be fine, Roto has a good reputation and if they say it's 16 it probably is. The size is probably ok but without a bore slugging it really is just an educated guess. The only other advice I have is for removing the leading and that would be to try some O'cedars brand copper scrubber wrapped around a brush and run it dry, works very fast to me but it also sounds like you have a lead mine in there. The copper scrub does work best dry though, any solvent tends to lube and while it will come out I feel this slows the scrubbing. Good luck and keep at it my first attempts rarely work either so know you aren't alone!

[curator]

Rule #1 with cast boolits: every rifle is a rule unto itself. If your Marlin has the old 12 groove rifling it might shoot better at slightly less velocity. Say around 1350 + or-. .461 may be yet too small requireing a boolit of .462 or .463 if these would chamber. You do not mention the weight of yor slug, or the design. Your gun's throat and the boolit's ogive may be incompatible. How you seat the slug in relation to the rifling's leade may also be an issue particularly if the boolit has a long "jump" before engaging the rifling. (more time for hot gasses to leak by and erode lead form the slug's sides) Flat based boolits at 1500+ fps often need a wad under them to avoid gas cutting at higher velocities/pressures. Try a HDP or thick felt wad, or work up a load using a filler like plastic shot buffer or cream of wheat cereal. Lastly, your bore may be rough or have tight/lose spots in it. These can be removed by careful fire-lapping.

[Maven]

Red Sky, I have a ca. 1992 Marlin 1895 with Microgroove rifling and use a plain base CB sized to .459" and get no leading to speak of. On occasion, i.e., when I can get it, I also use 5744. Three suggestions: Try sizing to .460" or even .459"; drop the powder charge to 26 or 27 grs. 5744; and experiment with a different lube. I'd experiment with the lower charge first, btw.

[00buck]

Is that a Gas Checked boollet or plain base?

[Larry Gibson]

Is that a Gas Checked boollet or plain base?

+ another, what is the specific bullet?

Larry Gibson

[rexherring]

Also, the boolits take a couple weeks after air cooling to fully harden to the advertized BHN.

And, Welcome to the forum.

[Red Sky]

Thanks everybody, my apologies on the lack of information - apparently I was a bit sleepy when I posted and missed some pretty important stuff.

The bullet is a plain base, 405gr from the Lee mold. The rifle is a new 2012 production from the Remington factory, I decided to grab it when I realized it had none of the issues that plagued many of them before the shutdown in the latter part of 2011. It does not have the microgroove rifling.

So far, things I can try are (in no particular order):
1. Different Lube
2. Reduced charge
3. Filler/Wad
4. Adjust seating depth

And those O'Cedar things are exactly what I was using (same as Choreboy and cheaper) - but I was trying to soak in CLP first, so that may be my problem. Regardless, I now have it mostly clean and am going to blast the rest out with some jacketed rounds (I have some minimum loads to start with, leading is minor enough now to be safe).

I will try to grab a sinker weight and slug the bore today as well, it may help answer some of the questions. Is there anything else I'm missing? Thanks again!

[btroj]

Are you seeing lumps of lead in the bore or just a grey colored wash near the muzzle?

Antimony wash is rarely an issue and will not often cause any issues. Lumps of lead in the bore are another story.

I would use a softer alloy and a better lube. I have a Marlin and I findit difficult to make it lead. Plain base bullets at 1700 will give some leading after 20 rounds or so.

[Red Sky]

I don't know if I would describe it as "lumps" as it seemed smooth throughout, but it did reduce my accuracy to a level I didn't believe possible, so it certainly was an issue. I'll definitely try picking up another lube today, depending on what's available at the store I use. Thanks!

[btroj]

I have never had issues getting rid of leading using a bore bush of the proper size, worn is fine, and some chore boy.
If you run a snug patch thru the bore can you feel resistance at the points with the build up?

I would look at one of the White Laebl lubes. They are a site sponsor, have great products, and really good prices. I have used Carnuba Red with very good results in my Marlin.

I wuld also try a softer alloy. A hard alloy can be a problem if it gets q little squeeze down in a rig spot. I have had as much leading with too hard as I have with too sof. It is about finding a balance. I shot 13 or so BHN plain bases at 1700 for a bear hunt. Plenty hard to give 20 accurate sorts before lead built up and the bullets who great. They were also soft enough to not be brittle yet hard enough to not flatten out if I hit a shoulder.

Itis all about balancing pressure, alloy, lube, and fit to eliminate leading. Too much or too little of any one can cause issues. Sometimes a lack in one can be made up for by once pressing another but not always.

[Red Sky]

Thanks! I'll try the alloy too - do you think 2/3 hardball + 1/3 pure would be good? I don't have any pure stock right now but surely I can find some. I'll give that lube a try as well.

Something not well discussed it seems is a testing procedure for this sort of situation. Obviously I'm going to need to test these changes with some methodology, but I want to avoid another massive buildup that takes hours to clean as well. Does anyone have any suggestions for a process for this?

I will be shooting the rifle again today with some jacketed rounds to finish cleaning it, then will slug the bore and re-lube some of my current stock. From there, I plan to adjust my seating depth using a marker (not sure what yet) on the bullet to see how it is being imprinted upon while chambering a dummy round. From there, I'll try loading with a wad or filler depending on what I can find, and a reduced charge. Does this sound like a good approach, or am I missing a step that might prove useful/necessary?

Also, does anyone have suggestions for how to go about testing these loads without ending up with a monster cleaning job again?

Thanks again everyone!

[runfiverun]

cut the powder back.
going past about 1400 fps is generally a disaster for me in rifle calibers.
i can do it in my revolver cartridge leverguns fine but for some reason the 375 win,bottle necked cartridges, and the 45/70 give me grief over 1400 fps with plain based boolits.
i don't get leading but i generally have horrible accuracy.

[looseprojectile]

I would start with ten less grains of that powder and use a card wad and dacron.
Then I would add a grain at a time to see where the lube fails. [leading starts to happen].
Gas checks and sized and lubed boolits of the correct alloy are necessary for the velocities you are attempting.
Also try adding a coat of JPW to your Aloxed boolits. [Does wonders].

I use 23 grains of SR 4759 with a card wad and dacron with plain base 425 grain boolits in my 45 70 Pedersoli roller and start to get leading at that velocity, about 1300 FPS. [BHN of 9].

Welcome to Cast Boolits and don't give up, you'll get it right.


Life is good

[Gray Fox]

One thing to add; I don't know if shooting jacketed will clean your bore of the remaining lead, but most importantly, use a good copper bore cleaner to get rid of any remaining jacket material fouling before you shoot the lead again. If there is any of that left in the bore you may well end up with more lead fouling the second time than you had the first.

Another thought would be that once you do get the bore really clean use some J-B bore cleaning compound to polish up that new bore. I used it on my recently purchased .45-70 guide gun and it really slicked the bore up. Don't overdo it, but just polish it.

I hope these thoughts help, as I know that each rifle is different, and new barrels usually take a break in period just like a new car's engine does. GF

[btroj]

I would reduce powder charge to get into the 1400 fps Rangel better yet, go to 2400 and use 22 to 24 gr with some dacron filler.

I would also cut the hardball 50/50 with pure lead and go from there. Even cutting it 25/75 with range scrap would help. I run most of my 45-70 bullets in he 12-14 BHN range. Most of them are cast from straight range scrap and they work pretty darn good.

Unlike Run I have had very good sucess with my Marlin at 1700 to 1800 fps. It just doesn't get those loads much because I don't find them enjoyable. I prefer my 24 gr of 2400 no filler and a 420 plain base. Shoots very well and is comfortable enough to shoo 50 or more in a day.

[Freightman]

45/70 give me grief over 1400 fps with plain based boolits.
i don't get leading but i generally have horrible accuracy.

Me to my shoulder hurts for a week! vRed Sky you say you are shooting Jacketed bullets in the 45/70? did you get "ALL" the copper out? lead and copper are not compatible!

[chuebner]

I have been casting several different bullets for my friend's 1895 Marlin since he is not set up to do it. My alloy is about 12-15 BHN. Bullets are the Lyman 457124, Lee 405HB and Lee 457-340F. All bullets are pan lubed with Emmerts or Bullshops NASA lube and sized to .459. He loads these over 12gr. Unique or 18gr. 5744, basically trapdoor velocities of 1050-1100 fps. These bullets all shoot sub 2" groups at 100yd. Never had a leading problem. I believe you are driving them too fast and stripping the bullet on the micro groove rifling. Just a thought.

Charlie

[Larry Gibson]

Drop back to 28 gr 5744 and try that with the PB'd bullet........or drop back to 25 gr and ad a 1 gr dacron filler and work up in 1/2 gr incrments until accuracy goes south again.

Larry Gibson

[looseprojectile]

One other thing ------ I always season the bores of the guns I have cleaned squeeky clean.
I use TC bore butter. It may be my perception but my bores are easy to clean even when they lead. The lead comes out with just a tight patch, all at once.


Life is good