Diagnosis for my “De-rimming .22LR” failures?

[MUSTANG]

After removing the stuck case (see post # 19) I jumped into another attempt to make jackets in the E-Bay De-Rimmer die. I decided on a Hybrid set up for the De-rimming effort. I used the Corbin CSP-1 press with the E-Bay sizing die and performed two separate tests using the Corbin Punches.

Test #1: Corbin Long Punch in CSP-1 Press with E-Bay de-rimmer.

I threaded the E-Bay de-rimmer down into the press and adjusted it so that the Corbin Long Punch would engage at the greatest mechanical advantage area. I successfully de-rimmed over 160 .22LR cases with this configuration without a single “Popped Head” !

Concern: The “Best” setting for this combination, where it is easiest to de-rim and the results overall feeling and results are maximized, is with only three full turns of the die into the press. Given the pressures generated against the threads; is there reason to believe the threads on the press or die would fail at this setting?


Test #2: Corbin Short Punch in CSP-1 Press with E-Bay de-rimmer.

I threaded the E-Bay de-rimmer down into the press. To get it into a reasonable mechanical advantage area on the press required at least 13 full turns of the die into the press. Setting at 13 thread turns deep resulted in the second case “Popping” the head off. In this case, clearing was easy as the jacket tube pulled out on the punch when it was lowered out of the die. After clearing the punch; I lowered the Die a couple of turns at a time until I reached a total of 16 turns deep into the press. In the 13 turns to 16 turn region, I would every few .22LR cases have the rounded dome of one case wedge into the previous case. This seems to be caused because the cases were not being fully pushed out of the sizing region of the die. I turned the die down a couple of turns, tested again and repeated until that problem disappeared at about 16 full rotations into the press. I successfully sized about 60 .22LR cases with on the one Head being popped.

The press is mounted at a height of 36” from the floor. With the Short punch adjusted as I indicated above; it takes almost a 180 degree rotation of the CSP-1 arm to be fully sized and pushed through the case. Makes one feel as if they are doing Toe Touches every time you operate the press arm. The use of the Corbin Short Punch is not near as desirable as the long punch for this reason; but I still worry about high pressures, stress and wear with only 3 full turns of threads engaged as described in Test #1 above.


I measured the dimensions for the “Jacket Output” of the E-Bay and Corbin Jackets. They are as follows:

E-Bay Die, External Jacket Die Measurements for 5 Jackets: .2220, .2210, .2215, .2210, .2215.

Corbin Die, External Jacket Die Measurement for 5 Jackets: .2200, .2205, .2205, .2200, .2205.


DukeinMaine:


I did a scratch test with the Awl on the bottom flat face of the dies. The E-Bay die is either not heat treated; or a light heat treatment because is left a lite scratch on the high polish finish. The same scratch test did not leave a visible mark on the Corbin die.


Mustang

[Lizard333]

Just goes to show, you get what you pay for. Corbin's dies aren't cheap, but cheap dies aren't good.

Glad to hear you got your problems worked out!!

[MUSTANG]

Just goes to show, you get what you pay for. Corbin's dies aren't cheap, but cheap dies aren't good.

Glad to hear you got your problems worked out!!

The difficulties I encountered, coupled with the force necessary to size the rim off of a .22LR case, makes one wonder how BTSniper is sizing those 9mm and .40S&W cases into jackets. I'm 6'4'' and weigh 230 lbs. How do the little guys get-r-done on the end of that swaging press arm. Guess that's why they make cheater bars.


I am now ready to move into the actual production of some .224 projectiles. New territory I have not traveled yet. Last spring I cast a few cores for the .22LR jackets using an RCE core mold. I had misplaced the Corbin core mold in a different Ammo can years ago and when I could not find it; ordered another from RCE. Found the original Corbin mold a few weeks ago.

Guess its time to move into seating the cores and........


Mustang

[Lizard333]

Now you know why some of us have ponied up the coin for an actual swaging press. I started out swaging 40's into 44's on my Rockchucker. Then I got BT to make me an adapter to use his dies on my Walnut Hill. Now the only part of swaging I do on my Rockchucker is his universal notching die. Everything else is on my Walnut Hill.

Way easier to swage on a press designed for swaging instead of reloading.

[DukeInFlorida]

The pressures required for the .224 bullets is far, FAR less than for the 9mm and .40 swaged bullets.

For the .224 bullets, using BT Sniper's die set, I'm using the tips of two fingers for pushing. One of the tips I learned is that you should be able to "feel" the swaging operation on the small bullets. And, with the tips of two fingers, I can control the swage operation and feel the process happening quite easily. No cheater bar required for the .224.

In fact, if you squeeze with TOO much force, with the .224 bullets, you will get stuff stuck in the dies!

[MUSTANG]

The pressures required for the .224 bullets is far, FAR less than for the 9mm and .40 swaged bullets.

For the .224 bullets, using BT Sniper's die set, I'm using the tips of two fingers for pushing. One of the tips I learned is that you should be able to "feel" the swaging operation on the small bullets. And, with the tips of two fingers, I can control the swage operation and feel the process happening quite easily. No cheater bar required for the .224.

In fact, if you squeeze with TOO much force, with the .224 bullets, you will get stuff stuck in the dies!

Duke:

I have continued to evaluate my set up, trying to get past the high resistance I experienced while de-rimming the .22lr cases to produce .224 jackets. I reviewed once again the Corbin manuals I bought years ago, read the Corbin web site, and posts here. I reset the Linkage on my Corbin S-1 Swage Press back and forth a couple of times (between the 2" and 4" throw settings (Front and rear holes in the picture) and tested. I am scratching my head concerning how; but it appears that I failed to have the correct setting. The pin (hole setting) is now in the correct location to have the 2" ram movement Corbin specifies for Swaging. (See picture, right side).





In the left side picture, I have the punch and dies set for 22LR de-rimming with all of the changes that have been implemented since I started. This latest configuration now gets me to where de-rimming is much easier; I can now do a .22LR de-rimm with two fingers and a thumb, but I think it is still slightly more difficult than you describe. I'll experiment with slight adjustments seeking that sweet spot. But with the latest set up; I have now de-rimmed over 500 cases without a single "Popped Head".

By the way; all of these cases were annealed. When I collect more .22LR cases, I'll see how it works without annealing. The Corbin references I have, and the Web Site all state to anneal cases before de-rimming. But then again, there seems to be a lot of knowledge gathered since Corbin published his books and reference material years ago.

Well; next step is to cast a bunch of cores in preparation of Core Swaging, Core Seating, and Boolit Manufacturing. Here in Southern Nevada, we are still a good 4 weeks out from the temps dropping out of the 100's and down into the 80's. Once that happens, time to get the Casting Pot going.


Mustang

[Lizard333]

My input. Try without cases annealed. They are too soft. That's why your popping heads. I have done thousands and only had a couple fail. Do your annealing after you de-rim.

[DukeInFlorida]

One other thing to get fussy about is the cleanliness of the brass before you de-rim it.

And, I'm not only talking about the outside of the .22 LR brass. The insides are notorious for being gritty unless you really clean them with a wet tumbling system. Walnut shell and corn cob media really won't work it's magic inside the brass.

Some of the brass that you are de-rimming is actually thick enough to get somewhat extruded while it's being processed. Extruding while hung up on the grit (on the insides) can make the issue even worse.

[MUSTANG]

Well the stars are finally aligned. I have successfully "De-Rimmed" at least 1000 LR cases, and had only a single head "Pop Off" since my last post. I attribute the problems I encountered to the following:

(a) I believe the original Corbin De-Rimming Die, punch and 22LR case form a too tight fit condition when some .22LR cases are De-Rimmed, causing the .22LR case to bind as the rim tries to iron out at the head; with the head of the brass failing as a result.

(b) My other de-rimming die I picked up from "E-Bay", the De-Rimming die punch had too sharp (Square) a shoulder where it engaged the head inside of the case, causing that punch and die set to "Shave/Shove" the brass head, resulting in failures.

(c) The operator was inexperienced, complicating the conditions in (a) and (b).


By using a "Hybrid" of the Corbin punch (.198") with a nice rounded shoulder, and the "E-bay" die with a slightly larger Inside DIameter, I am able to produce a core jacket with an outside diameter of .222" . This jacket fits well into the Corbin Core Seating Die. Below is a picture of my "Ugly Children" as produced on my first attempt after recently receiving the Core Seating die I purchased from Corbin's to replace the one missing from my set.





You can see that I have a learning curve to deal with to get the cores correct, and the nose punch adjusted correctly. Couldn't resist the urge to shoot the eight (8) on the left in the picture. They produced the group seen on the Target. Shots were from 75 yards, average chronographed speed was ~ 1989fps using 27 Grains of WC-860. Groups were dramatically larger than what I see with my reduced velocity WC860 and M855 surplus ball loads; but for a first stab at it, not as bad as I expected.


I have all ready experienced additional challenges, but I'll start a new post to address them.

Mustang

[supe47]

What kind of weight did your "lovely little darlins" turn out to be? And what are you testing them with, twist, barrel length, ect.? Supe

[MUSTANG]

What kind of weight did your "lovely little darlins" turn out to be? And what are you testing them with, twist, barrel length, ect.? Supe

Supe47:

These were 62 grains (+ or minus 0.2 Grains). These were shot in a Savage Axis Bolt Action rifle with 9X Scope, a 1 in 9 twist 22inch barrel.


I have started another thread as I work on trying to refine the nose. This new thread contains info on round two, with test firing of 10 rounds each in both the Savage Axis and my AR-15 which also has a 1 in 9 twist. The link to that posting is:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=166596


Mutang

[PhilOhio]

Mustang,

Eliminating your popped heads is easier than you think. I believe I spotted the problem in your first post. Oven annealing won't soften the brass enough. I've been doing it the following way since about 1980, have made thousands of these jackets, and have not popped one head...so far, I guess I should say.

1. I hang each case on a straight piece of coathanger wire, hold it just above the blue tip of a propane torch flame on my kitchen work table, and keep it there until the entire case glows red. This takes about 15 seconds. No need to hold it red for longer.

2. I let it drop in water, just to save time, as quenching does not really improve the annealing, although it doesn't hurt. Remember, brass works the opposite of steel.

That's it. I never tumble, clean, or do anything else with the cases before annealing them. Just don't start out with dirty cases. They go through the de-rimming die just fine, as long as you are sure the punch end is slightly rounded, because a sharp edge would be likely to cut/pop some of your heads.

Another issue is that some manufacturers have switched to recycled brass of unknown alloy, which is way too hard and cannot be adequately annealed, no matter how you try to do it. CCI is one, although it's good ammo. But, unfortunately, it may be very difficult to ignite in some firearms made before the 1960s, because firing pins and springs were made with different alloy expectations.

It doesn't really take so long to do hundreds of cases this way, but if you are processing thousands, use a kiln or some other way of getting them red hot. That's the key; red hot and correct alloy. When you find a case manufacturer that works, stay with it...unless they change the alloy.

When you run into cases which require just too much brute force, even after heating to red hot, give up on them and switch brands.

Haven't posted here for a long time. Just dropped in by accident, spotted this thread on a common problem, and hoped I might be able to offer something useful.

[yarro]

If you stick brass in steel, put die in freezer. Brass contracts a little faster than steel.

-yarro