45/90 Shooters?

[oldred]

I just checked my copy of the 49th - they state 26,000 - I say BS.

I purchased Quick Load because of my 45/90.

Not that I would consider shooting 43 grains of 5744 under a 500 grain bullet in my 45/90, I wouldn't even think of doing it, but I would be interested to know just how much pressure Quick Load would estimate that load to be with a COL of 3.07? I know what 32 grains will do in my rifle and while that load is probably safe enough, it gave me no reason to think otherwise, I just could not imagine dumping in another 11 grains of powder! I have been skeptical of that data from the first time I saw it!

[Don McDowell]

What pressures will the Montana rifles stand up to in 45-90? I know that the the Win BPCR rifles clearly state that their 45-90 and longer are BP only. Do C. Sharps and Shiloh have the same limits?

I just looked in my 49th Lyman manual, They show 43gr of 5744 under the 500gr #457125 at 26600 CUP, or the same load under the 535 gr 457132 at 25400 CUP and both at 1600FPS+ that's probably gonna rock as hard as I'd be willing to stand behind on a regular basis.

Can't say for sure about C Sharps, but Shiloh only warrants their guns for smokeless chambered in over the counter factory cartridges, 45-70,30-40 etc. Beyond that they don't recommend using smokeless.

[oldred]

Even pedersoli oks this round with smokeless, I would like to think that the Shiloh could handle anything one of those imports could and I am quite certain it can. Just like Winchester/Browning not recommending it is the prudent thing to do from a legal standpoint lacking the SAAMI specs on this particular round, lawyer thing I guess. A 45/90 would be little different than a 45/70 shooting the same bullet at the same pressures.

[Don McDowell]

With the absence of SAAMI pressure specs, and a severe lack of pressure tested smokeless data, no manufacturer that has a chance of loosing just about everything , on account of some idiot and a can of greendot and some 458 bullets all got together at a reloading press and then moved onto the range with his mild loads, ( you know everything should of been ok it is pistol powder and joe blow on the bent barrels forum said)....

[oldred]

The 45/90 is normally loaded as a low pressure round similar to the 45/70 and any action that is safe with the 45/70 would obviously be safe with the 90 loaded with the same bullet at the same pressures,The 45/90 has been loaded with smokeless powder for over 115 years by both handloaders and factory loads and is still loaded and shot an untold number of times everyday now using smokeless powders. Published data for this round is, and has been, around for a long time even if it's not as common as some of the more popular cartridges but it's there and has been for a long time and many, MANY, rounds have been fired using this data so it has stood the test of time. There's data out there from the powder manufacturers with some, like the Lyman data, being much hotter than others but the Lyman manual is a very popular publication and I am sure the data has been used a lot so it too has been tested by time. The bottom line is smokeless powder is perfectly safe in these cartridges and has been for over a hundred years and it was safe then and still is now!

[XTR]

oldred, I think you misunderstood Don's post. I read that to make the point that in the absence of published engineering and test data on the round manufacturers aren't willing to publish anything that their actions are safe. Another contributor is that the Montana guys are small and someone like Winchester and their owners are not up for testing a round that's such a very small production.

[oldred]

You're right so I tried to word that a little better, I guess I misunderstood the intent.

Just for the record I have been shooting the 45/90 for many years but there was a huge gap in that period, but still an old Winchester lever gun in 45/90 was my first centerfire rifle and the thing is still in my family. It might be of interest that back in 1968 when I inherited that Winchester I also got with it some factory ammo that I now realize had to have been loaded sometime from 1936 or earlier, this ammo was loaded with smokeless. Not knowing or even caring what I had I just shot those things and threw away the cases but I sure would like to have them now!

[MGySgt]

oldred - PM sent on the QL with 500 grain and 5744

Drew

[XTR]

Just to expand on this a little. When I resurrected this thread I sent questions to C Sharps and Shiloh asking about pressures for their 45-70s and 45-90s.

Shiloh says "45-70’s will take Ruger #1 loads, the 45-90 is blackpowder only."

C Sharps says "we recommend keeping pressures in the 28,000 to 30,000 range. "

I actually didn't expect the answer I got on the 45-70s from Shiloh, but the others are pretty much what I thought they'd be.

[Don McDowell]

oldred, I think you misunderstood Don's post. I read that to make the point that in the absence of published engineering and test data on the round manufacturers aren't willing to publish anything that their actions are safe. Another contributor is that the Montana guys are small and someone like Winchester and their owners are not up for testing a round that's such a very small production.

Bingo we have a winner

There is pressure tested data in the Lyman 48th manual, and most likely in the 49th.
So that want to use smokeless in the cartridge certainly have a couple of good starting points.
BUT the fact remains that is a big case, actually the same as a 458 win mag. Lots of room for lots of powder that has no real business in a case that size,,, and the liability to any manufacturer is just to great to risk okaying the use of smokeless in their guns.

[oldred]

Just as there is lots of room for the wrong powder in that big ol' 45/70 case to get a person in trouble! Poor loading practices obviously can get a person in trouble with most any case but of course that, as you correctly point out, becomes more of a concern as case capacity goes up. It's a classic example of "stick with published data and you will be OK" but venturing into the unknown is inviting disaster regardless of caliber.

Don when you mentioned someone with greendot from the bent barrel forum (got a good chuckle out of that) a case in point came to me, about 25 years ago a guy I knew had a trap door and some loading equipment but zero loading experience. He had also bought what he needed for the 38 special at the same time and the guy at the store where bought it suggested Bullseye powder but that was when he bought the 38 special stuff. Not having a manual he simply pulled apart a factory 405 grain round, don't know if it was WW or Rem, and measured the amount of powder that came out, he then loaded that amount of the Bullseye into his empty cases topped with some 400 grain Speer jacketed bullets! He had not yet fired any of the rounds (obviously!) in that old trapdoor when he showed them to me and a couple of other guys at a make-shift range we had set up for the weekend. When we tried to explain how dangerous that was he became defensive and insisted the guy at the store was an expert loader and he said Bullseye would be fine, we tried to again explain that maybe that was so but in what amounts? The guy insisted and just could not understand why one powder could be so different than another in the same amounts, he was insulted and took his rifle and left when we told him he would not be allowed to try his loads there because of the obvious (to us) danger. I later learned that what we told him did sink in enough for him to ask someone else who told him the same thing so he never shot those things. I have often wondered how many times that type of thing has gotten people hurt and the blame was placed on something else? Bullseye might be safe enough in the right amounts, or not I have no idea, but I for one would certainly not want to fire a round with that much of such a fast pistol powder under a bullet that heavy no matter what the case size! Just an example of what some people will do.

[Don McDowell]

Oldred, that's exactly the point. The 45-70 has saami pressure specs. So if someone takes one of those and thru stupid reloading practices turns a gun into shrapnel, the company will have some stiff legal fees, but won't stand much liability.
Scares the **** out of me when you read on these forums, "well you can use cast bullets and pistol powders, and not have to worry because the pressures are so much lower" Right there you Know that person has never looked at any pressure data, there are some combinations in several cartridges that go well past the peak pressures of many accepted jacketed bullet loads.
And just as scary is the ones that say, "well get a chronograph then you'll know how much pressure" WRONG that chrony only tellls you how fast the bullet went over the screens, it won't tell you you may have to have a hammer and punch to open the bolt, or that case will never solidly hold a primer again...

[oldred]

Just to expand on this a little. When I resurrected this thread I sent questions to C Sharps and Shiloh asking about pressures for their 45-70s and 45-90s.

Shiloh says "45-70’s will take Ruger #1 loads, the 45-90 is blackpowder only."

C Sharps says "we recommend keeping pressures in the 28,000 to 30,000 range. "

I actually didn't expect the answer I got on the 45-70s from Shiloh, but the others are pretty much what I thought they'd be.

This is the pressure range I have been talking about from the beginning and like I said in an earlier post the BP only is a "lawyer thing". They say the 45/70 is safe to Ruger no.1 pressures and as well built as those rifles are I have no doubt that's true but do they build the 45/90 version weaker? Common sense tells us they do not but since most published 45/90 data for smokeless powders is in the 28,000 to 30,000 PSI range or below and there is little to none (mostly none) in the 40,000+ range then what else could they say? Besides there simply is no need to load that heavy under those 500+ grain bullets anyway, if a person needs that kind of load then a 458 magnum or 458 Lott is a much better choice. Loading the 45/90 down to BP pressures using smokeless is easy and data is available, if a little more "thump" is wanted in the under 30,000 PSI range then published data is there for that also but if a person is looking to hot rod this fine old cartridge he will be pretty much on his own!


Again the advantages to the 45/90 vs the 45/70 is the '90 can achieve 200 to 300 FPS more velocity than the '70 at the same pressures or the same velocity at less pressure depending on the load.

[Pittsspecial]

I recently purchased the 45/90 1885 Winchester Highwall w/28" bbl. I hope to use my Lyman - Postell 535gr mold and the smokeless ACC-5744 powder. I am going to try BP down the road but for now I want to develop a good 500+yd load. Can you please provide a place to start?
BTW: I have some IMR 4064, H4895 as well Any information would be appreciated....