[QUOTE=geargnasher;1804567]GG= Grease Groove, as opposed to paper-jacketed 'slicks' with no grooves cast in the boolit.
If the velocity increases the recoil will increase unless the bullet weight or charge is also reduced.
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[QUOTE=geargnasher;1804567]GG= Grease Groove, as opposed to paper-jacketed 'slicks' with no grooves cast in the boolit.
If the velocity increases the recoil will increase unless the bullet weight or charge is also reduced.
i love burning blackpowder in my 45-70's and the 45-120 but have wondered if my 45-70 is the best way to go as i use a cookie as well to help control fouling ...but the 45-70 case is too short to load the loads i want and still have room for the cookie.......so i been thinking about runnin my 70 rifle out to the 2.4...45-90 or the 2.6 or 45-100 length for just this reason. my cookies are 1/4 inch and i use 3/8ths for the 120 case but there is plenty of room in that one to put any cookie and still have room for 110+ grains of powder...think thumper in a hunting weight rifle....and thats with blackpowder...YIPPI !!!
Originally Posted by oldred
I had bought a Cogswell and Harrison hammered double in 500BPE, just cause I WANTED something big, fat, long and with two barrels....
I have never felt necessary to come up with any other rationalization!
Exactly, to me it's for greed not need!!!!
OR......."Mr Need is gone and gotta have is here". That's what I told myself when I ordered my 1885 High Wall from C.Sharps. Have a Marlin in 45-70 and just wanted something.......else. Worked for me. Supe
P.S. The bad part of retirement is you have more free time to wait.......and wait, and wait. Have an order in to BT for his 224 dies, more waiting. At this rate I'm going to wait myself broke.
I agree Lyman's data is WAY too hot for comfortable shooting with Reloder 7. I settled on 40 grains and 3/4 grain or so of Dacron with the 500-grain Lyman boolit (nose and bands both sized to fit the rifle), and 38 grains with the 535-grain Lyman boolit with the same Dacron filler. Neither of these loads were particularly clean, but shot very well out to 400 yards.
Gear
Thread resurrection here. (not that old though)
I have a loads question for the 45-90 guys, shooting smokeless
I'm kicking the idea of either re-barreling to or getting a new to me big bore, and the 45-90 seems interesting, but if I have to fill the case with filler I'd think I'd be just as well off with a 45-70 chamber. (I've read through this thread a couple of times)
For someone who shoots smokeless is the longer case an advantage?
What loads work best w/o fillers? I'm assuming the 45-90 will be pushing heavies, though I'm just guessing, maybe it would work with 385-405s but it the feeling I get is that the long cases push 500+ pills, is that wrong?
Last edited by XTR; 10-09-2012 at 03:18 PM.
I shoot a 45/90, but not with smokeless. So I don't have any real world experience in that area ... much like you. But, based on what I have 'heard' over the years (and I have kept my 'ears' open for 45/90 smokeless data) i would agree with your evaluation.
The factories have run the 45/70 through the gamut of possibilities, and they have published reliable data for it ... 'reliable' being data that the lawyers will let them stand behind.
I have seen few who will even describe a 45/90 smokeless load, and none who were able to inspire any confidence in me.
As case capacity increases, the insanity index of using smokeless powder increases. The 90-grain case may be close enough to 45/70 to stay within reason, but I have chosen not to test it.
One thing I DO know for a fact.
It is possible to put a safe load of smokeless in a 45/70 cartridge that is extremely uncomfortable to shoot.
I can't imagine what benefit it would be to increase that sensation ...
CM
Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.
You hear it all the time, "you can easily stuff enough powder into a 45/70 case to overload it so there is NO advantage to the longer 45/90 case" but that's simply not true. With the longer case you can get about 200 to 300 FPS more velocity at the same pressures with the 45/90 vs 45/70 or you could get the same velocity as the 45/70 but with lower pressure, with the right powder/bullet combo the 45/90 makes an excellent smokeless round. I have been researching loads for this round for several months now and have found several good loads for both 400 and 500+ grain bullets but even 300-350 grain bullets can work also depending on the twist rate, 1-18 seems to work really well for the heavier bullets. As far as fillers needing to used they are not necessary nor even recommended by the powder manufactures however there may be some advantages to fillers in some situations, personally I prefer a full (or nearly so) case and there are several powders that will do just that in this cartridge. 5744 is a very popular powder for this round and does not need a filler even with quite a bit of air space in the case, it is not supposed to be position sensitive and even the 28 and 32 grain loads I shot worked out well. Right now I am working with a couple of other AA powders using data supplied by Accurate which give a better case fill than 5744 but apparently 5744 is the most popular powder for this round.
A bit of a historical note concerning using smokeless in the 45/90, To quote Cartridges of the world,
" the smokeless powder 45/90 came out in 1895 until it was discontinued in 1936"
So even the factories saw fit to use smokeless in this round almost from the time smokeless powder began to be used.
Also need to keep in mind the factories saw fit to load the cartridge with a 280-300 gr bullet seated deep enough in the case to keep the 2.6 oal to cycle thru the 86 winchester.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
I get that. I've played with pushing jacketed 350s at over 2000FPS and that kind of recoil is just not something that I'm interested in dealing with unless I've got a legitimate need, like shooting at something that will get angry and come stomp me into a mucky mess if it doesn't die. If I ever get to the point that I go and hunt those critters I'll deal with that at that point in time, but today I'm looking for something a bit more sane.
I'd think that you could load long 500 class bullets deep in the case and still have room for plenty of powder.
oldred, I've never used 5744, how full was the case with your 28-30gr loads, what weight bullets and what MVs?
True but the fact remains that the factories loaded the 45/90 with smokeless for a lot longer than they did with BP and BP pressures are easily obtainable even with 500 grain bullets, still IMO smokeless should not be used in an original BP firearm just as it should not even in other calibers. Modern built replicas or newer designs using the much stronger newer steels however can utilize smokeless in the 45/90 just as easily as they can with the 45/70 at the same pressures, even at least one of the import replicas says smokeless in ok in their 45/90 cambering at 28,000 PSI or less. Unless a person just wants to shoot BP (not a bad idea at all!) there simply is no real reason to NEED to use BP in the 45/90 cartridge but the rifle it's chambered in may be a different matter so it depends entirely on what it is used in.
Last edited by oldred; 10-09-2012 at 06:27 PM.
There was air space in the case with these loads but there is also in a lot of modern smokeless rounds of various calibers even from the factories (ever pull apart a factory 45/70 round?), still probably the main reason I chose to look for another powder was I wanted a better case fill necessary or not. I was using both Varget and H4895 with the Lee 459-500-3R but a recent discussion here leads me to believe I was exceeding the self-imposed pressure limit of 28,000 PSI by about 10% which was still well within the proof test of my rifle, it was proofed in excess of 40,000 PSI, and would have been well within the allowable range of a modern built 1895 like the Winchesters and Brownings. I have been discussing this with the people at Accurate (very helpful people BTW
This is data for use with the 500 grain Lee 459-500-3R seated to a COL of 3.070 and a maximum or 28,000 PSI.
Powder: Accurate -- 5744®.
Bullet weight: 500 grains.
Start load: 29.0 grains (1225 – 1265 Fps)
Maximum load: 32.5 grains (1350 – 1450 Fps).
Powder: Accurate -- 2015®.
Bullet weight: 500 grains.
Start load: 38.0 grains (1400 – 1500 Fps)
Maximum load: 43.0 grains (1550 – 1650 Fps).
Powder: Accurate -- 2495®.
Bullet weight: 500 grains.
Start load: 42.0 grains (1500 – 1600 Fps)
Maximum load: 46.0 grains (1650 – 1750 Fps).
Powder: Accurate -- 4064®.
Bullet weight: 500 grains.
Start load: 45.0 grains (1500 – 1600 Fps)
Maximum load: 50.0 grains (1650 – 1750 Fps).
45/90 load data sure is hard to come by but this cartridge seems to be becoming more popular all the time so all that may soon change.
Last edited by oldred; 10-09-2012 at 05:19 PM.
I gotta imagine that a 500gr bullet at 1600 took a while to shake off.
I take it from your comments that those loads were giving good case fill with the 500s.
What's the make on your rifle? If I don't re-barrel my Win-Mir, which I know is a high pressure action, I'm looking at one of the Montana rifles in 45-90.
The 5744 leaves some space but the Varget and H4895 would almost touch the bullet base, they were quite accurate but recoil was heavy. While the 5744 gives BP like pressures and velocities the 50 grain Varget and H4895 loads using a 500 grain bullet may only be suitable for a modern rifle like the Winchester/Browning 1885s or something like a H&R or Encore chambered in this round. The Acurate 4064 50 grain load using this same bullet gives a good case fill and is supposed to yield no more than 28,000 PSI but I have only loaded a few rounds with this powder so far at the starting load and probably won't get a chance to try them before the weekend, I doubt I will even attempt that bone jarring max load! The 32 grain load of 5744 with the 500 grain Lee that I used a while back will get your attention but in my 14 1/2 lb rifle it was not bad at all nor would it be in most rifles, even the 50 grains of Varget using the same bullet would not have been all that bad except for the crescent butt plate. My rifle is a custom built High Wall with a heavy octagon barrel and it has been proof tested to Ruger no. 1 pressures but I still strictly stay at much lower pressures more in line with the import High Walls rather than the newer Winchester/Browning versions, the recoil would be unpleasant even if the rifle is safe at higher pressure.
I have been thinking the same thoughts. That way I would get a grease cookie and the full.45-70 load.
Good to know that I am not the only one working this issue.
What pressures will the Montana rifles stand up to in 45-90? I know that the the Win BPCR rifles clearly state that their 45-90 and longer are BP only. Do C. Sharps and Shiloh have the same limits?
I just looked in my 49th Lyman manual, They show 43gr of 5744 under the 500gr #457125 at 26600 CUP, or the same load under the 535 gr 457132 at 25400 CUP and both at 1600FPS+ that's probably gonna rock as hard as I'd be willing to stand behind on a regular basis.
Last edited by XTR; 10-10-2012 at 03:45 PM.
That Lyman data is a real puzzle to me since it conflicts with most other data I have been able to find for this cartridge, for example compare their 5744 data with what the makers of 5744 recommend. The reason Winchester/Browning say BP only is that the 45/90 has no SAAMI specs, even Pedosoli (SP?) says the same thing but if you ask them they will tell you smokeless is OK as long as the 28,000 PSI pressure recommended for their rifles is adhered to. The New 1885s are chambered in some very high pressure rounds and reasonable smokeless loads for the 45/90 are safe in them, the 45/90 can be loaded to the same pressures as the 45/70 in these rifles and the 45/70 can be real thumper!
I just checked my copy of the 49th - they state 26,000 - I say BS.
I purchased Quick Load because of my 45/90.
Big Bore = 45+
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