Why are my primers backing out?

[PAT303]

I don't respond to correct answers except with a +1. That may be their wall of knowledge thing instead. Why would anyone tell someone else they had a light load without more to go on? He may be shooting hollow base wadcutters..... do you know what happens with them versus a flat or bevel base wadcutter? Suppose he believes them with those answers they gave and increases the charge........... Ya'll chew on that for a bit.

Yes,hollow base wadcutters. Pat

[runfiverun]

check the bushing that the firing pin goes through.

[45 2.1]

Sorry everyone,I should have given more info.The load used once fired .38+P cases with 4grns of AP70n,unique burning rate with 148 WC,max load is listed as 5.1grns.I fired two reloads of 357 mag ammo another shooter was shooting rams with and both reloads had pierced primers,somethings very wrong.The pistol is an early 586 with the firing pin on the hammer,not seperate like later models,sorry I'm a riflemen not pistol shooter,the cylinder has no movement on it's axis or by rotating,the gun itself is very tight and even though it locked up I had no issue hitting nine chooks at 25mtrs with 10 shots so it shoots very well.Like 45.1 said shooting primed cases without powder the primers backed nearly completely out of the case. Pat

Yes,hollow base wadcutters. Pat

You seem to have gun problems. A long firing pin or enlarged firing pin hole could be causing problems there. Use of hollow base wadcutters usually involves the lower half of the data used for solid base wadcutters due to the soft swaged skirt of the wadcutter. An old Speer manual indicates to not go over about 800 fps or you'll could damage the HB skirt. This very well could increase cartridge pressure above that level due to the skirt being forced outward and causing the case walls to grip the cylinder tighter. Check and see if your data is for solid or hollow based loads.

[ColColt]

I've never heard of primers backing out due to a light load. What of the few grains of Bullseye with a wadcutter? You don't get any lighter than that and tens of thousands have shot that load. I've shot wax bullets powered by only the primer and the pistol didn't lock up(Ruger 45 Colt). Sounds to me like something else is haywire.

[shotman]

Well I missed something.
If a primer can back out on a smith then there is something wrong. I have several and 2 was sent back. there should not be room for a primer to back out .
I can get a dollar bill in but it drags
I have shot MANY very light loads some wouldn't make it 25 ft NO primer back out

[subsonic]

Light loads can make a primer back out.

586/686 had a recall on some models for a problem with the bushing around the firing pin hole backing out. I had one of the guns that was in the recall range, but it shot fine and I never sent it in. It definitely could be this.

[9.3X62AL]

Early-series S&W 586 revolvers had an issue with excessive primer cratering; my first one had this trait. The primer make can influence the occurrence, as can powder choice or load intensity. 38 Special loads using Fed 100 primers would unfailingly tie up the revo, as would most Magnum loads. Winchester or CCI Small Pistol Magnum primers firing WW-296 powder at full-strength could run all day, though. Strange as h--l.

It was diagnosed by the factory as "too-large firing pin recess", and was a warrantee repair made by S&W to these revos. I saw at least a dozen such occurrences while rangemastering in the early-to-mid-1980s. The 586-1 and 686-1 and succeeding variants didn't have this quirk.

Any capable S&W armorer can replace the recoil shield and resolve the issue.

[subsonic]

Early-series S&W 586 revolvers had an issue with excessive primer cratering; my first one had this trait. The primer make can influence the occurrence, as can powder choice or load intensity. 38 Special loads using Fed 100 primers would unfailingly tie up the revo, as would most Magnum loads. Winchester or CCI Small Pistol Magnum primers firing WW-296 powder at full-strength could run all day, though. Strange as h--l.

It was diagnosed by the factory as "too-large firing pin recess", and was a warrantee repair made by S&W to these revos. I saw at least a dozen such occurrences while rangemastering in the early-to-mid-1980s. The 586-1 and 686-1 and succeeding variants didn't have this quirk.

Any capable S&W armorer can replace the recoil shield and resolve the issue.

That sounds more like it. It has been a while.... there definitely was a problem relating to this.

[PAT303]

Bugger,did S&W stamp the revolvers that were repaired or can I trace it's number?.It sounds like thats the issue,the load I used is our standard load for our Taurus club revolvers,they have fired thousands of them. Pat

[44man]

I shot a lot of rubber boolits in the basement with just primers. .45 Colt. The Ruger cylinder would lock from primer back out. I drilled the flash holes FOR RUBBER BOOLITS ONLY, problem went away.

[Thin Man]

PAT303,

Early S&W L-frame revolvers were factory-fitted with the large diameter fire pin (hammer nose) and fire pin bushing as was commonly used on the larger caliber revolvers. Suddenly the factory was overcome with complaints exactly like your experience - primers backing out and sometimes entering the hole in the fire pin bushing, thereby locking up the cylinder from rotation. Look at the recoil shield and find the fire pin hole, then note the small circle around it. That entire circle area is a plug (bushing) which is driven and staked in the recoil shield from front to rear.

S&W made the change in production to the small diameter fire pin (and corresponding bushing with small diameter hole) and the problem went away. Still they had to correct all the large fire pin revolvers in circulation. The factory identified willing gunsmith and armorers to make field conversaions, sent out tool and parts kits, and got the job completed faster. Yes, these converted firearms were marked to indicate that the correction had been completed, but that has been so long ago I can't remember how these were marked. A quick call to S&W customer service should get you the answer to this question.

All the above applies if your revolver is an early production model with the large fire pin and bushing. Two other explanations could be present:

(1) An early revolver with large fire pin and bushing, where someone installed the correct (small) fire pin on the hammer but failed to install the matching (small) bushing. Evidence of this would be frequent primer cratering with primers flowing into the bushing hole, locking the cylinder from any rotation usually in 1-2 rounds of magnum level ammunition. This does not sound like your experience.

(2) Bushing set-back, where the bushing has moved too deep (or was installed too deep) into the recoil shield and allows the primer to exit the case when the round is fired, and the case does not reset the primer in the pocket under recoil of the case. This example calls for the bushing to be removed and replaced with a new bushing. If your bushing is completely flush with the recoil shield, no problem. If you can see or feel that the bushing is below the face of the recoil shield, there is your problem. This is a fairly rare event, but we see this occasionally (can be in any revolver model).

If you can locate a shop that still has the parts and tools to accomplish this L-frame fire pin conversion, let them inspect for your revolver having either the large or small fire pin and bushing, also bushing for correct placement in the recoil shield. Otherwise, S&W has been very cooperative in correcting their products lately. A quick call to them and repair inquiry (when asking about "markings" for converted revolvers) should get a favorable response. They will need your firearm's serial number for reference toward manufacture date and ID of fire pin and bushing at original manufacture. You can reach them at 1-800-331-0852.

Good luck.

Thin Man

[jwp475]

Early-series S&W 586 revolvers had an issue with excessive primer cratering; my first one had this trait. The primer make can influence the occurrence, as can powder choice or load intensity. 38 Special loads using Fed 100 primers would unfailingly tie up the revo, as would most Magnum loads. Winchester or CCI Small Pistol Magnum primers firing WW-296 powder at full-strength could run all day, though. Strange as h--l.

It was diagnosed by the factory as "too-large firing pin recess", and was a warrantee repair made by S&W to these revos. I saw at least a dozen such occurrences while rangemastering in the early-to-mid-1980s. The 586-1 and 686-1 and succeeding variants didn't have this quirk.

Any capable S&W armorer can replace the recoil shield and resolve the issue.

This condition causes primer extrusion which can tie up the revolver.

Primers backing out of the case is caused by the case not being pushed tight against the recoil shield caused by not enough pressure

[9.3X62AL]

This condition causes primer extrusion which can tie up the revolver.

Primers backing out of the case is caused by the case not being pushed tight against the recoil shield caused by not enough pressure

This is the only condition I was addressing. My own and none of the other deputies' early-series L-frame showed primers backing out of cases, so I'm not in a position to comment with experience on that occurrence. My only experience with primers backing out as you describe occurred with the plastic CCI practice/indoor cases and bullets. They very reliably backed primers out and tied up the works quite nicely.

[jwp475]

+1.....

[BLTsandwedge]

This week I'll send a new S&W 610 back for excessive primer protrusion from 7.8g Power Pistol under a 401638- among a wole bunch of midland to warm .40 and 10MM recipes. The culprit- the primer bushing is set too deeply during manufacture. It's a warranty item. The diagnosis is from a reputed smithy...if S&W states otherwise I'll post their diagnosis and if their remedy actually worked.

[PAT303]

I had a good look at it today and the firing pin bushing is loose,when I drop the hammer the bushing moves forward and I can push it back with finger pressure,seems like it's the problem. Pat

[geargnasher]

I shot a lot of rubber boolits in the basement with just primers. .45 Colt. The Ruger cylinder would lock from primer back out. I drilled the flash holes FOR RUBBER BOOLITS ONLY, problem went away.

Yup, Gotta drill them with gluelits too if you want the cylinder to keep turning.

The combination of a deep-seated wadcutter and hollow base means LIGHT loads only for the reasons previously mentioned. If you want to shoot them full-house, turn the boolits around and seat them backwards, makes a heck of a hollow-point and can be shot safely at higher pressures.

Gear

[BossHoss]

I have had a Smith that had the same problem.

After a little arguing the facts come out, and Pat's problem is solved.

I love this site. I started reading this thread, and could not stop.

Which brings me to a hijacking , but related question:

Where can a guy here get some 38 special button head, HBWCs?

I have a 1911 38 AMU , and I would like some button head HBWC s to make the exact ammo for her, I could use H&G 50's, but it is still not a HB.

Anyone swage these? I don't know if a mold exists for them, or how hard it would be to get good boolits cast from one soft enough for a good skirt seal.