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Thread: Gots a question for you Trade gun shooters

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanshi View Post
    Interesting information about fouling rings, waksupi; This is something I've never thought about. I may not completely understand this concept as the only fouling ring I'm familiar with is the crud ring that builds up in the breech area. This can't be what you're referring to?
    Go back through the posts, I think it is explained fairly well now.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  2. #22
    Boolit Master


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    I got a bit heavier patching, and had to use my short starter, but 70 grains of 3Fg seemed to be where it burned clean. I started just shooting at random targets, out to about 40 yards, and then found some of those yellow flowers at about 25 yards, and got to where I was exploding them about every other shot and making the ones sway that I missed. I think by Nov if I keep practicing I will be ready for deer season. Thanks for all of the help Ric.

    Best wishes,

    Joe
    WWW.flintknappers.com/lithicarts Traditional items for the traditional hunter.

    Tyrants use the force of the people to chain and subjugate-that is, enyoke the people. They then plough with them as men do with oxen yoked. Thus the spirit of liberty and innovation is reduced by bayonets, and principles are struck dumb by cannon shot: Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma

  3. #23
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    Just for grins and giggles, go back to your thinner patching, and see how the loads work with that. You may need a smidge more or less powder.
    Smoothbores don't need a real tight patch to shoot well. Try to stay away from using the short starter. It sounds like you are figuring it out. Go get 'em!

    By the way, how is your recoil at the 70 gr. level? Pretty acceptable?

    I think I will sticky this thread, since we have covered round ball in the smooth bore pretty well. Between this thread for roundball, and the V.M. Starr thread for shooting shot, it may help others in the future.
    Last edited by waksupi; 07-31-2012 at 01:51 AM.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  4. #24
    Boolit Master Maven's Avatar
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    Joe, et. al., After reading quite a few posts on various forums about smoothies and patched RB's, I've learned that patches in a smoothbore act differently than they do in a rifle. I.e., in a rifle, the patch expands or should expand to fill the grooves. A tight[er] or thicker patch is often beneficial in a rifled bbl. However, in a smoothbore, a thicker patch really has nowhere to go and just makes starting and seating the ball more difficult. This is most definitely the case in my gun as I've tried .014" -> .018" pillow tick patches with both .597" (Tanner) and .600" (Dixie) RB's and have found no real improvement in accuracy using thicker patches. In fact, the .597" RB is the more accurate of the two and performs as well with either the .014" or the .017" material I've recently been using. The .017" patches are a trifle more difficult to load, of course.
    Last edited by Maven; 12-15-2013 at 03:14 PM. Reason: mispelling

  5. #25
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    I was planning on trying several patch thicknesses when I get the chance to actually sit down and play with it more. I want to avoid the short starter. I use it on my 50 cal rifles because it is a habit more than a necessity and my 50s shoot so well with the slightly tighter load. I don't use it on my 32 and don't want it to become a habit with the trade gun. As far as the recoil with 70 grains of powder, it isn't bad. It doesn't make the steel pins in my shoulder yell back at me like the 90 grains of 2F did.

    I think I need to work on the trigger pull a bit, and it will help with accuracy. It must have a 30 lb trigger pull, with a lot of creep and stops in it. I can live with the 30 lbs of pull as and creep as long as it is smooth and even. I think the lock just needs a bit of polish work. I know not to take much off, use power tools on it, or change any angles. I was going to use a small diamond file to smooth things up a bit. I know I can't do anything about the poundage off it, but at this point anything will help.

    Also, how often should the lock be pulled off and cleaned? I know with my other guns I pull them about once a year, but the barrels come off for cleaning, unlike the trade gun which is fixed. I try to keep the gunk from running into the lock when I am cleaning it, but it still happens to some extent.

    Best wishes,

    Joe
    WWW.flintknappers.com/lithicarts Traditional items for the traditional hunter.

    Tyrants use the force of the people to chain and subjugate-that is, enyoke the people. They then plough with them as men do with oxen yoked. Thus the spirit of liberty and innovation is reduced by bayonets, and principles are struck dumb by cannon shot: Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma

  6. #26
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    With a flinter, I take the lock off every time I clean. Pretty much a necessity to do a good job.
    I wish I had the gun in hand, I could fix that heavy trigger for you. I'm pretty sure someone put that gun together from a kit, from some of the design differences I saw in your pictures. I suspect the trigger may have been hung incorrectly. If you can pull the lock, and give me a good picture of the mortice where the trigger is pinned, I can tell you. It may be an easy fix.
    The other place to look for smoothing the trigger pull, is on the tumbler. Disassemble the lock, and use a magnifying glass to look at the engagement surface of the full cock notch. Sometimes these can be pretty rough, in the best of locks. If it is rough, you would need a fine grade diamond lap stick, and carefully polish the surface. Do not change any angles!
    Also check the engagement surface of the sear. This should also be polished bright.
    Check the lock and see that it functions easily when off the gun. If it does, and you still feel a lot of creep and drag when it is in the gun, there may very well be wood interference somewhere, that will need cleaned up.
    The trigger pull is definitely one of the most important things with a smoothbore.
    If all else fails, send the lock to me, and I'll tune it.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  7. #27
    Boolit Master


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    I think I just solved about 90% of my trigger pull problem. There was a huge burr rolled up on the sear. Once I carefully removed it and polished it things are moving a great deal smoother. It doesn't feel like it has half the gravel from my creek in it. I can actually point the thing and steadily apply pressure and have it fire with out it catching and dragging. It still may need a bit of final tuning later on but at least it is quite shootable now. There was no need for a magnifying glass to see the rough spot. A blind man could have seen the thing it was so bad. Thanks again for all of the help.

    Best wishes,

    Joe
    WWW.flintknappers.com/lithicarts Traditional items for the traditional hunter.

    Tyrants use the force of the people to chain and subjugate-that is, enyoke the people. They then plough with them as men do with oxen yoked. Thus the spirit of liberty and innovation is reduced by bayonets, and principles are struck dumb by cannon shot: Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma

  8. #28
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    I would still check the engagement notch on the tumbler for roughness some time. If you want to go a step further, push out the pin that holds the trigger. Check the top engagement surface of the trigger. Ideally, they are polished quite smooth. This can also help eliminate gravel from a gun.
    Once these steps are done, and assuming the trigger is hung properly, your trigger pull should go down to around 4# or so.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  9. #29
    Boolit Master


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    I am assuming that all the pins on a trade gun are like the barrel wedges on other guns. They are inserted from left to right and removed from right to left. I am thinking of getting the 4 way tool that the Brits used on their Brown Bess muskets. That tool looks like a must have for smoothy shooters. I won't buy it, I will most likely make one specifically for my gun, but the same concept.

    Best wishes,

    Joe
    WWW.flintknappers.com/lithicarts Traditional items for the traditional hunter.

    Tyrants use the force of the people to chain and subjugate-that is, enyoke the people. They then plough with them as men do with oxen yoked. Thus the spirit of liberty and innovation is reduced by bayonets, and principles are struck dumb by cannon shot: Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boerrancher View Post
    I am assuming that all the pins on a trade gun are like the barrel wedges on other guns. They are inserted from left to right and removed from right to left. I am thinking of getting the 4 way tool that the Brits used on their Brown Bess muskets. That tool looks like a must have for smoothy shooters. I won't buy it, I will most likely make one specifically for my gun, but the same concept.

    Best wishes,

    Joe
    Well, if you ever get hold of a gun I have made, you will find the pins have been put in from the right side. Why do you want to take the barrel out for? I only remove a flintlock barrel maybe once every ten years, to check for rust.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  11. #31
    Boolit Master


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    I was asking not to remove the barrel anytime soon, but the trigger. I think if I take the trigger out and polish the top of it up a bit like you suggested, it will make the trigger pull as smooth as a baby's butt. I have it close now by polishing the sear and the tumbler. Each time I do something to it, it gets 100X better. The only thing left is the trigger top. On my Phily Derringer all of the pins are tapered and inserted from the left to the right, and removed from right to left. I gave it to my step father and after a few years of shooting decided to remove the barrel and broke the stock because he dove the pins out the wrong way. I don't want to take a chance on cracking the stock if I decide to remove the trigger pin because it was tapered and I didn't catch it and drove it the wrong way.

    Best wishes,

    Joe
    WWW.flintknappers.com/lithicarts Traditional items for the traditional hunter.

    Tyrants use the force of the people to chain and subjugate-that is, enyoke the people. They then plough with them as men do with oxen yoked. Thus the spirit of liberty and innovation is reduced by bayonets, and principles are struck dumb by cannon shot: Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma

  12. #32
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    Gotcha. You may, or may not need to remove the trigger guard to get the trigger out. Probably not. I am pretty sure you will find the trigger pin was put in from the mortice side.
    All pins in a North Star should be straight, with no taper.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  13. #33
    Boolit Master


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    Thank you Ric for the info about the pins, that is exactly what I was looking for. I should have been more straight forward in my questioning in the first place about all of the pins.

    Best wishes,

    Joe
    WWW.flintknappers.com/lithicarts Traditional items for the traditional hunter.

    Tyrants use the force of the people to chain and subjugate-that is, enyoke the people. They then plough with them as men do with oxen yoked. Thus the spirit of liberty and innovation is reduced by bayonets, and principles are struck dumb by cannon shot: Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma

  14. #34
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    I pulled the trigger and polished it yesterday after getting back from squirrel hunting, while I had the lock out for cleaning. The trigger was not as rough as I thought it might be but it wasn't smooth either. I also removed a small amount of wood with a file, where the trigger was dragging on it. I don't think the wood removal made that much difference but every little bit helps. I think I may need to do a bit more work on the tumbler but I will wait until I am not using the gun.

    Best wishes,

    Joe
    WWW.flintknappers.com/lithicarts Traditional items for the traditional hunter.

    Tyrants use the force of the people to chain and subjugate-that is, enyoke the people. They then plough with them as men do with oxen yoked. Thus the spirit of liberty and innovation is reduced by bayonets, and principles are struck dumb by cannon shot: Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma

  15. #35
    Boolit Master


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    I shot a 5 shot group at 30 yards with the trade gun this evening. I was using my thin pillow ticking for patching and a .60 cast round ball with 70 grains of 3Fg. I was quite pleased with the results at 30 yards. I kept all 5 in under 3 inches, and I also think I have found my aiming point with the load as all 5 of them were right where I was aiming. I think now that I have reworked the lock and got the trigger pull under control I am going to like the way this gun shoots.

    Also by switching to the 3Fg I have also tightened up my shot pattern, and can now almost knock all the hair off of a squirrel at 20 steps if I am not careful and can easily reach out and roll one out of a tree at 35 to 40 steps.

    I now realize that everything I was told in years past about smooth bores and flint locks was not exactly true. Things like, "Flint locks are slow and unreliable." yes this can be true if you have a junk lock, bad flints, and bad touch holes. Also the myth, "smooth bore guns are not accurate." Well that is true if you are comparing it to my custom built 243win with the 3x9x40 scope at 100 yards. But when comparing it to the average muzzle loading rifle at 60 yards, it is not really true. Over all I am very pleased with my trade gun now that I have worked out many of the issues that it came to me with. If someone was looking for an all around do it all muzzleloader, I would recommend a well made trade gun like those made by North Star West or one of the other more widely known custom builders.

    I also thank each and every one of you fellas here who have contributed to this thread and helped me get this gun up and running like it should be. With out each of your thoughts on the subject I would not be nearly as happy with this gun as I am.

    Best wishes,

    Joe
    WWW.flintknappers.com/lithicarts Traditional items for the traditional hunter.

    Tyrants use the force of the people to chain and subjugate-that is, enyoke the people. They then plough with them as men do with oxen yoked. Thus the spirit of liberty and innovation is reduced by bayonets, and principles are struck dumb by cannon shot: Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma

  16. #36
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    I love it when a plan comes together!
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  17. #37
    Boolit Master


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    Well yesterday morning was a very productive experience with the trade gun. I took it out on the back deck where I normally do much of my off hand 100 yard shooting at a 10 inch gong a made years ago. I have always figured that if I could keep all of my shots off hand within that 10 inches at 100 yards, with any of my MLs or old lever guns, I figure I was good to shoot at a deer at that distance with said guns.

    I fired 10 shots at the gong using 70 grains of 3Fg powder, a 0.012 pillow ticking patch, wrapped around a 0.605 round ball. The first shot was a grease patch, lubed with Crisco, just like I would use in the woods for the fist load, and the follow up shots were spit patches. I always try to practice the way I would hunt, starting with a grease patch, followed by spit patches. I was quite please with the results as I hit the gong all ten shots. I seriously think I am ready for deer season in a couple of months. I figure if I keep practicing every day or even just a few times a week with the old gun, there won't be a deer inside of 100 yards that is safe, and most of my shots are under 20 yards.

    Best wishes,

    Joe

    P.S.

    I also a couple days ago while I was working on the lock to get the trigger pull righted, was trying to figure out how I could dry fire the gun and not cause any wear and tear on the lock in order to check the trigger pull. Then it hit me, replace the flint with a piece of wood the sized and shaped like the flint. The wooden replacement for the flint would serve to soften the hammer fall against the frizzen and pan, all the while allowing me to get a proper feel of how the trigger and lock were acting when installed in the gun. This simple piece of wood allowed me to test the lock and trigger pull, and make adjustments where needed, because I could actually assemble and "fire" the gun in my work room. So if you are ever needing to dry fire your flinter for any reason, replace the flint with a piece of wood the same size and you will be good to go.
    Last edited by Boerrancher; 08-05-2012 at 09:46 AM. Reason: To add a Post Script
    WWW.flintknappers.com/lithicarts Traditional items for the traditional hunter.

    Tyrants use the force of the people to chain and subjugate-that is, enyoke the people. They then plough with them as men do with oxen yoked. Thus the spirit of liberty and innovation is reduced by bayonets, and principles are struck dumb by cannon shot: Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma

  18. #38
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    It sounds like you have the accuracy thing figured out! Very good!
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    Wow what an insightful thread. Thanks to all who posted here!

  20. #40
    Boolit Master
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    I also have a great respect for this thread as I am gaining confidence in getting a flint smoothie. thanks fellas for the insights and procedures ... very helpful.
    WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE...MORE WILL BE SAID THEN DONE

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check