50-95 Winchester Cronographed

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Took the 50-95 1876 Chaparal 28" barrel out this morning to crono some loads. Crono was set 8 feet from muzzle.
The two BP loads I fired today were

79 grains 3F Goex 515139 353 grain 50/50 as cast 1485 fps avg
76 grains F " " 1240 fps avg

Both loads in the same lot of Jamison brass with Win. standard rifle primer. Card wad on top of powder. These are the max loads that this brass will hold with this boolit maintaining the COL of 2.26. A caliber .308 with a RCBS 180 FNGC sits between the 50-95 cartriges.
Mike in ILL

[Mk42gunner]

My first thought was that is quite a velocity difference between F and 3F.

My second thought was that the Jamison Brass has a lot less capacity than the original. I wonder what ballistics would be, if you coud get a full load under the boolit?

Robert

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I wondered seriously about my crony when I fired the first round of 3F. But the previous two test loads through the 45 Colt were what they generally showed. When the folow up 3F loads showed the same I figured it is just the 3F doing what it does. It would have been better to have compared it to 2F but there is none to be found here in my AO. One thing for sure, that short fat column of 3F detonated like a rocket. The 350 grainer was at the 100 yard burn much faster than any load I have yet shot. Recoil was more than I figured to see with a light caliber 50 boolit. Barrel was clean and the case was expanded to be almost snug in the chamber. This would be my serious BP hunting load.
Any one reading this with a caliber 50 rifle ... have you fired 3F in your cartrige ? Be interesting to read about what fat brass does to the burn caracteristics of 3F. I do know in a flinter 3F readily ignites in a pan and gives good velocity per volumn as compared to 2F.
Mike in ILL

[Kraschenbirn]

That sure is one purty piece!! I was shooting at the next bench while Mike was chronographing his loads and found it truly impressive.

Bill

btw...Mike, if you'd like to try some FFg, I've got sufficient on hand that I can easily spare enough for a few test loads.

[missionary5155]

Good afternoon
Did a little old book digging. In a caliber .54 muzzle loader 3F was compared to 2F. Using a .535 RB with a .015 patch (groove was .562 and 43 inches long) 80 grains of 2F propelled the ball at 1367 fps with pressure at 6400 LUP. 80 grains of 3F was 1629 fps and pressure of 8400 LUP. This is comparring Goex powders. 3F really powers past 2F. Too bad they did not compare 3f to F.
Another piece of my load to remember is I am using a 350 grainer rather than the 285 grainer Winchester loaded the 50-95 Express load with. I am not a 300 grain fan for the 45-70 and was not real interested in a less than 300 grainer in the 50-95. The 350 is my choice. But just for fun I cut the base and bottom groove off a 350 grainer to make a 285 (near) to see how much more 3f would fit into the Jamison case.
My mold is the Lyman 515139 which has 3 grease grooves. By removing the bottom base and groove the boolit now weights 285 with just 2 grease grooves. Origonal boolit height was .727. New "cutoff" has a height of .602 more or less.
Jamison case with "cutoff" boolit will hold 88 grains of 3F. Powder was trickled into case about 20 grains at a time with lots of tapping and vibrating to get it to form as near a solid mass in case as possible. Boolit would still have to be finally pressed into case to reach the required OAL of 2.26. This is the same procedure I used to load the cases I fired Friday morning. This is not far off from the basic differences I have found comparing new made 50-70 and 45-70 case capacities with reported old "ballon"case capacities.
So bottom line to me... this all pretty much falls into place. 3F delivers a good velocity advantage over 2F and much more over F. But at a pressure difference. Chaparal advertises thier 1876 model as safe for any blackpowder loading. I have no intention of trying 4F to test thier statement though. 3f delivers good performance. I still want to get a can of 2F to give that a run with my 350 grainer through the Crony though.
The old Ideal #15 Handbook shows a 518144 mold that closly resembles my "cutoff" boolit. If I could ever lay my hands on one of those I would sure enjoy loading a few just to run them over my Crony.
Mike in ILL.

[missionary5155]

Howdy Krasch
If-en our mutual friend Dan does not have any I will take you up on that...
Mike

[Bob Busetti]

I was going through a book called WRACO headstamps. This book is wealth of info for old cartridges. Somewhere in the book the author states that Winchester used 3f black in the 50/95 & the 50/110. When they used 2f the 50/95 used 90grs. Also Winchester used different case lenghts with jacketed bullets. And in the early 1900's reduced the bullet dia. to .5055-.506 from .5125-.513. The same bullets were used in the 50/110. This happened about 6/20/11. Just some interesting info. But it sounds like your right on track. Thanks for the info.
Bob

[Bob Busetti]

I forgot to ask you where you got the boot for your buttstock. I have been wanting one like yours. It looks excellent on a great looking rifle.
Bob

[Boz330]

I never had much luck getting good chrono readings that close to the muzzle. I usually set the chronograph 20 ft out. That way you don't have smoke or wads messing with the readings.

Bob

[missionary5155]

Howdy
The "boot" came from someone here at Castboolits who was making them.
Crono distance is somewhat limited where I shoot to a wood unit constructed like a boat dock out front the elevated spot rifles shoot from. Only wad in the round is a thin cereal box wad to protect bullet base from inbedded BP. I did not measure exact distance.. about 3 paces from muzzle.
Mike in ILL.

[Ed in North Texas]

Hmmm. I wonder what the pressure increase would be for a .50-70/450 gr loaded with 3f instead of 2f. Although my NY State model RB is a tackdriver (when I can guess the sights right) with 70 2f under the 515141 and a .030 veggie wad.

I've been told, and read, that it simply isn't possible to get pressures too high with BP (at least when staying away from 4f and finer). I know the Martinis are strong enough (but need 1f to fill that huge case), but I wonder about RBs like the Swede 12.7, which is older than the NY State by a few years. Opinions??

Hope this isn't seen as a threadjack, it isn't about a .50-95, or Winchester.

Ed

[sharps4590]

I used to have trouble getting good, consistent readings with Bp cartridges or muzzleloaders, until a little Ozarkian ingenuity was used. I tape a couple layers of newsprint over the front screen and voila', no more crazy readings. It's just a little bit of trouble and it keeps residue off the front "eye" of the chrono. No, you can't see to shoot a target at the same time but I usually only run about 5 rounds over the screens so that isn't really an issue. Works great and it's easy to extrapolate the data from 10 feet.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I also have never had good luck with the Chrono that close to the muzzle shooting BP loads wads, lube and all sorta stuff messed with readings. As the other poster mentioned 20 feet and you will have no issues.

KW
The Lunger