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Thread: WC860 in .223/5.56 - Yes But....

  1. #61
    Boolit Master
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    Was this on another forum? I notice if ask about a caliber and anything slower than varget people really pile on. Keyboard heroes I suppose

  2. #62
    Boolit Master brstevns's Avatar
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    Old post, but is anyone still using wc872 in the 223Rem.?

  3. #63
    Boolit Master



    MUSTANG's Avatar
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    Yes. It is far less than optimum for .223; but provides a means of shooting the .223/5.56 (and other small bores) when more suitable powder becomes difficult to acquire as has occurred at least three times in my lifespan.

    Currently there seems to be a good supply of powders tailored to the .223/5/56 (although at a much higher cost than a few years ago) such as:

    H322®
    Benchmark
    IMR 8208 XBR
    CFE 223
    Varget®
    Winchester 748
    BL-C(2)
    H335
    IMR 4198
    H322®
    H4895
    CFE 223
    Varget®
    IMR 4895
    IMR 8208
    XBR
    BL-C(2)

    I continue to have a goodly amount 860, 870, and 872 powders that I use in my AR-50. Should the current legislative activity against the 2nd Amendment (House, Senate, and even President sounding off on Gun related legislation; as well as Wal-Mart and other companies "Getting out of the Firearm Business partially or entirely", there could be another round of powder shortages. Hopefully these pages will provide the incentive and a foundation of "Home Based Research" that can support others in their continuation of the shooting sports.

    Mustang
    Mustang

    "In the beginning... the patriot is a scarce man, and brave and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain.

  4. #64
    Boolit Master Doughty's Avatar
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    After reading of Mustang's experiments several years ago, I tried some 860 over a 4227 kicker. It is now my favorite load with RCBS powder coated bullets in an AR15. I found that while GCed bullets shot best, unGCed were not far behind. Certainly good enough to be used in practical situations.
    AKA "Old Vic"
    "I am a great believer in powder-burning".
    --Theodore Roosevelt, Hunting Trips of a Ranchman

  5. #65
    Boolit Grand Master


    swheeler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doughty View Post
    After reading of Mustang's experiments several years ago, I tried some 860 over a 4227 kicker. It is now my favorite load with RCBS powder coated bullets in an AR15. I found that while GCed bullets shot best, unGCed were not far behind. Certainly good enough to be used in practical situations.
    That's good to know, maybe you'd like to share load specifics, velocity?
    Charter Member #148

  6. #66
    Boolit Master Doughty's Avatar
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    swheeler,

    The firearm is a S&W M&P. It is stock, except for the iron sights being removed and replaced with a 4x scope or a red dot. Twist is 1-7 I believe. The bullet is the RCBS 55 grain cast out of 3ww-1lino alloy and sized .255.

    The load I settled on is 20 grains of W860 over 5 grains of IMR4227. I mostly use magnum small rifle primers, but other primers will work almost as good. I started load development with 3 grains of 4227 and then filling the case with 860. Result was a dirty action and barrel, action would not cycle, and accuracy was poor. I then began increasing the 4227 and decreasing the W860. I finally settled on my load which is pretty clean, cycles the action for many rounds without jamming and shoots 2" to 2.5" five shot groups at a hundred yards off of sandbags with GCs. With no GCs, the groups run 3" to 3.5". Velocity is in the low 2200 fps. For comparison, mil-spec FMJ loads group a 1.5". Good commercial jacket bullets would still not group at an inch.

    I worked this load up in the days when it was hard to find components. I now have a Lee six cavity mold that works almost as good as the RCBS. I have LOTS of brass and powder. I have a fair amount of primers. I found that all the small primers could be made to work, magnum rifle to standard pistol. Primers are the weak link, can't have too many.

    I have had occasions to let several people who, for various reasons, have had little or no chance to shoot a firearm, and no chance to shoot an AR15, fire this rifle with a red dot mounted. Standing, shooting at 5" plastic target balls at 25 to 50 yards, then at rocks on the hillside to as far as they can imagine, they have all loved shooting this rifle. All left dreaming of having, or at least being allowed to have, such a weapon.
    AKA "Old Vic"
    "I am a great believer in powder-burning".
    --Theodore Roosevelt, Hunting Trips of a Ranchman

  7. #67
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Thank you much appreciated by myself and surely by brstevns! Scot
    Charter Member #148

  8. #68
    Boolit Mold
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    Old thread, but good info and I have found need info on old threads. I have posted here before about decent results but low velocity. Most recently, I tried some powder I rolled to flatten the balls to 0.012" to increase surface area in hopes of increasing burn rate. I was getting lower pressure (using a PressureTrace) than unrolled! I got a Magnetospeed for this test to simplify the setup, but it quit reading after my test shots with factory ammo, but I continued to at least get the pressures. The unburnt WC860 pitted the front of the Magnetospeed, so I'll put duct tape on it in the future. I apologize that my testing has such long gaps, but my next step is to get the pressure up to 55K again (increased pressure also increases burn rate). I would also like to try a slower powder (I have been using H4198) to see if a slower booster will hold the pressure up longer, keeping the WC860 burning better.

  9. #69
    Boolit Mold
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    Finally got out again. I rolled the WC860 from about 0.020" balls to about 0.010" flattened balls (rolled again from last post). I used 4-6gr. of H4198 kicker. The most surprising result was that the pressure (using a Pressure Trace) was the same for all of them (about 55,000). The velocity was the same at about 2800fps, which I find very acceptable. It cycled my Protection Engine (a free piston engine) perfectly. I was using 855 bullets because I had trouble with the Magnetospeed last time and I thought the steel tips might trigger the magnetic field better. I had to make a shield for the Magnetospeed because unburned powder was impacting it. Still a lot of powder impact. Duct tape didn't last, but I also had an aluminum shield under it (aluminum to ensure not affecting the magnetic field). I'll be verifying the results, but may be almost ready to start bulk loading.
    Last edited by chic; 03-31-2021 at 09:55 PM. Reason: clarification

  10. #70
    Boolit Master
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    I was gifted some 5010 or 50bmg, not sure which as well as some H116. The H116 works very well in 223 cast loads so I haven't tried the 50bmg in the 223. I have been using the 50bmg in a couple of my larger cases such as 358N and 416 Rem with cast boolits with very good results. As it is slower than any normal powder used in these larger cases, I started with a case full of 50bmg. This left unburned powder in the barrel and primers very rounded. Next I added 3grs of AA9 and reduced the volume of 50bmg by the same amount. This cleaned up the burn a bit so I moved up 1 gr at a time until I got to 7 to 9 grs of AA9 and clean powder burn and primers filling out some but no real pressure. I now need to adjust load for accuracy and velocity. So far it is working well.

  11. #71
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by chic View Post
    Finally got out again. I rolled the WC860 from about 0.020" balls to about 0.010" flattened balls (rolled again from last post). I used 4-6gr. of H4198 kicker. The most surprising result was that the pressure (using a Pressure Trace) was the same for all of them (about 55,000). The velocity was the same at about 2800fps, which I find very acceptable. It cycled my Protection Engine (a free piston engine) perfectly. I was using 855 bullets because I had trouble with the Magnetospeed last time and I thought the steel tips might trigger the magnetic field better. I had to make a shield for the Magnetospeed because unburned powder was impacting it. Still a lot of powder impact. Duct tape didn't last, but I also had an aluminum shield under it (aluminum to ensure not affecting the magnetic field). I'll be verifying the results, but may be almost ready to start bulk loading.
    Thanks for posting. This answered a question I had about pressures produced by surplus powders.
    Micah 6:8
    He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

    "I don't have hobbies - I'm developing a robust post-apocalyptic skill set"
    I may be discharged and retired but I'm sure I did not renounce the oath that I solemnly swore!

  12. #72
    Boolit Master brstevns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swheeler View Post
    Thank you much appreciated by myself and surely by brstevns! Scot
    Yes Sir, So glad to see your post

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check