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Thread: WC860 in .223/5.56 - Yes But....

  1. #21
    Boolit Master



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    Growing Up 5.56 = Good for Shooting People - Bad for Hunting!!

    Quote Originally Posted by swheeler View Post
    Mustang, much better chrono readings and 1921 fps about what expected for 62 gr bullet. I just want to add this, don't really know why, my wife shot a mule deer doe with the 55 gr bator cast at about that speed, tasted pretty good.

    SWheeler

    Good to hear your wife had success with the .223/5.56 hunting deer. Growing up in Texas, the smaller Boolits and Rifle cases were pretty well "Verboten" for hunting anything except Rabbits and Crows. If memory serves me right, the .243 was about the smallest center fire allowed for Hunting. Despite these views held by the Game Wardens and State of Texas back then; I did have a bit of success in the Wind Rows of the Panhandle using the 55Gr. commercial .223 round while hunting Turkey in the mid 70's using my Remington 40X and a 6 Power scope at distances of 150 to 200 yards. Neck and Head shots not body shots; I would say I was running about a 60% shot success ratio. Still have that rifle in the Safe, and it will still put 10 rounds into a group the size of my small finger nail using high quality ammo or tailored reloads; but it is just to heavy to lug around.

    It is interesting that we allow and even advocate the use of small caliber, high velocity rounds against personnel by the military and police; but frown on the same for game and in some cases predators and vermin.

    Mustang

  2. #22
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
    Try Reloder 7 for a kicker.

    Gear
    Gearnasher:

    Thanks for the recommendation on Reloder 7 as a Kicker. My H4895 is a small quantity left over from a large buy I made quite a few years ago when I was using it in my High Power Competition loads, and it is almost all gone. I do have some Reloder 7 in the Powder Magazine, so we'll see how it works as a replacement for the Kicker in Loads.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master



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    Load Transferred to AR-15 - Needs More Work

    I took the AR-15 out to the Range to test the WC-860 Loads in .223/5.56. These loads were developed in my Savage Axis Bolt Action Rifle and can be seen in post # 16 of this Thread. Velocities in the AR-15 were in the 2000 to 2100 fps range. There were no problems encountered with the Gas Action functioning the rifle. Ejection was excellent with brass thrown about 10 to 12 feet to the right and slightly rear of the rifle position. Unfortunately the loads that grouped very well in the Axis rifle, dramatically opened up in the AR-15. This can be seen in the comparison Test Targets in the following picture. (Click on picture to enlarge.)



    In the next few weeks I'll work up some new loads for the AR-15 and see what we can develop. Given the initial problems with the NcStar 4X scope on the AR-15; I may decide to go to Iron sights for upcoming tests.

    Load data for this session is attached as a PDF file.


    Mustang

  4. #24
    Boolit Mold
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    I have enjoyed this thread. I just bought a couple jugs of WC867 for a few different projects. I now want to try it in my .223. I have an older savage with a slow twist and might not can shoot the heavier boolits. I'll try some 55 grainers and see how they work.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by redcoupe View Post
    I have enjoyed this thread. I just bought a couple jugs of WC867 for a few different projects. I now want to try it in my .223. I have an older savage with a slow twist and might not can shoot the heavier boolits. I'll try some 55 grainers and see how they work.

    Red Coupe:

    Let us know how the 55Gr works out. Pics of groups if you have ability, and if you get some good results.

    I have been recently swaging and test shooting, a few at a time. Below is picture of this mornings target for 80Grain .223/5.56 bullets made from 22LR cases. Powder charge was 24 Grains WC-860 with a 3 Grain H4895 Kicker over the primer. Group was 3/8” wide X 1 ¼ “
    Tall.




    If your 55Gr loads prove out, I'll see about making some lighter bullets in the 55Gr. weight using the Corbin Swage set.


    Mustang.

  6. #26
    Boolit Buddy Baryngyl's Avatar
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    On the booster/kicker charge I see where it always says to make sure they do not mix in the main charge.
    What happens if they do mix?


    Michael Grace

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baryngyl View Post
    On the booster/kicker charge I see where it always says to make sure they do not mix in the main charge. What happens if they do mix? Michael Grace
    Not too much............. except a lot of people here will tell you it's unsafe and a rant will probably start. Duplexing, triplexing and other unusual things like that have went on in the firearms world for at least the last 140 years without problems for those who can think things thru. Some very unusual things are going on with the 223/5.56 cartridge like this right now. Of course a discussion of these things won't happen on this forum due to the naysayers.

  8. #28
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    Not much room left in a small case for the granules to mix in. However, longer barrels will show larger groups because the ignition characteristics would be different enough to create inconsistent acceleration curves, even with rounds having a "zero" velocity difference. ... felix
    felix

  9. #29
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    Basically, if the kicker or faster burning powder isnt held against the flashhole, it serves no purpose but to make the burn rate of the overall erratic. The point is to burn it first so it acts like an extension of the primer rather than burning it as part of the main charge.
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  10. #30
    Boolit Master madsenshooter's Avatar
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    I agree with wiljen. "Like an extension of the primer". Let's remember, we're talking about powder that's meant to be lit with a primer much larger (approx .308 diameter), and probably a lot hotter than any LRM primer, so much, much larger than a SR primer. That's why I use double base powder as my kicker. The nitroglycerine content of the powder burns hotter and faster than single based powders and fires the 860 better. Seems to work a bit better, single digit SDs in my 6x45.
    "If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny."

    -Thomas Jefferson

  11. #31
    Boolit Buddy Baryngyl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiljen View Post
    Basically, if the kicker or faster burning powder isnt held against the flashhole, it serves no purpose but to make the burn rate of the overall erratic. The point is to burn it first so it acts like an extension of the primer rather than burning it as part of the main charge.
    From what I have read and heard the flame from primers is more then enough to completely fill all but maybe the largest case full of flame, so it seems to me that all the booster would still ignite at the same time.


    Michael Grace

  12. #32
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    Michael, what you say is correct sometimes. The function of the primer extension is to extend the primer action only, and any more is sorta' defeating the purpose of the primer's intent. BP requires flame to ignite as opposed to WP (white/smokeless powder) which relies most heavily upon wave energy. SEE conditions rarely are set up when using BP for this reason. ... felix
    felix

  13. #33
    Boolit Master madsenshooter's Avatar
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    A 50BMG boxer primer weighs 18.5gr, a 5.56 NATO boxer primer only 4gr. Obviously, all the weight difference of 14.5gr is not in the primer pellet. But something I would try, when I get round to it, is to use a kicker of the fastest burner I had in order to better simulate the blast from a 50BMG primer. Yes there are reasons to use other slow burning powders, such as to take up space. But if I wanted to get a 5.56 caseful of 860 to operate at the pressure it was intended to operate at, that's what I'd do, and in fact have done. Thing is, Blue Dot was the fastest I had, but that's ok, kept pressure down to cast bullet levels.
    Last edited by madsenshooter; 10-28-2012 at 06:28 PM.
    "If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny."

    -Thomas Jefferson

  14. #34
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by btroj View Post
    Sometimes it is about seeing if something will work. Some people just love to tinker with stuff.
    As for the mess, I doubt it is that much worse than cleaning an AR like normal. Might be a bit more powder fouling and some lube but that all wipes out pretty easily.

    To each their own.
    Guilty as charged, your honor.

    Most of the time, I don't even photograph the target nevermind posting about it. But, every now and then, even a blind hog finds an acorn, right?

  15. #35
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    Thumbs up Comparison of Various Powders as a Kicker with WC860 in 5.56/.223 loads

    I was able to get out to the range yesterday and do some more testing with WC-860 in my Savage Axis .223 rifle. I shot 5 rounds on each target with 24Grains of WC860, plus 3 grains of a different powder Kicker charge in each. The 5 strings of 5 rounds each used 80 grain swaged .223 bullets made by myself from .22LR jackets using Corbin Swage dies. Goal was to see results of various powders (H4895, Reloder-7, Alliant 2400, Unique, and Green Dot). A composite of the 5 strings shot appears below (Click on Picture to Enlarge):


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Comparison of Various Kicker Powders used with WC860 and Swaged 22LR .223 Bullets.jpg 
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    Tape measured Group sizes (width and height) for each Target, along with Load Data and velocities for each of the 5 strings, appears in the attached pdf.

    I had never before consciously deliberated on the relative volume to weight of Flake, extruded, or Ball powder; but it became apparent in this effort that the Unique and Green Dot (Flake) powder was much bulkier for a given weight. The WC860 plus extruded and Ball powder kickers in these loads all filled the cases to about the bottom of the neck, while the WC860 plus Flake powder loads all filled the cases to the top of the neck - almost spilling out.

    The best groups were with Unique or H4895 (discounting the 1 flyer) kickers. I am not sure that this 5 round strings can be depended upon as a definitive result. I'll try 10 round strings and repeat this some time in the next 2-3 months when I get a chance. This effort does show pretty good results for "Home Made" bullets swaged using from 22LR cases as jackets. These groups may not impress the Bench Rest community; but I am becoming more confident with my swaged bullets (in heavy 80 grain variants at least). Keep in mind that although only 1 of 5 groups was under 1 MOA; the rest were very close to 1MOA. A little more load work and careful attention to BRASS (Breathe, Relax, Aim, Sight, & Squeeze) while shooting just might get me consistent Sub-MOA performance.


    Mustang

  16. #36
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    Velocity Differences for 5.56/.223 using WC860 and Various Powders for Kicker

    Below is a table listing the velocities I achieved for the previous 5 strings of 5 rounds using 24 Grains of WC-860 and 3 Grains of Powder for a Kicker (H4895, Reloder-7, Alliant 2400, Unique, and Green Dot). Note the more than 200 fps velocity increase from the Slowest Powder (H4895) to the Fastest Powder (Green Dot) used as a Kicker/Booster in the test. Velocity increases track directly with the speed of the Booster/Kicker when the grains used (3 Grains) remains constant.


    There was one head scratcher in the table. Shot #5, using Green Dot as a Booster/Kicker, had a velocity of 2456; almost 200 fps faster than the previous four shots. Since this was a "Super Compressed" load (3 grains of Green Dot, plus 24 Grains of WC860 filled the case all the way to the top of the neck), the possibility of a heavy or double charge of Green Dot is highly unlikely, particularly since each round was hand weighed and inspected at each step of loading.

    Warning - The use of Duplex Loads (Booster/Kickers) can be hazardous if not correctly used. WC860 is an exceptionally slow powder - Use of faster powders than WC860 with a Booster/Kicker should be apprached with exceptional caution.

    Mustang


    PS: I had planned on extending this test to include both HiSkor 700X and Bullseye powders as Booster/Kickers, but I will approach them in the future with a judicious amount of caution given their much greater burning speed compared to other powders in this test. The loads with Green Dot and Unique, had ever so slight signs of primer flattening compared to no signs of primer flattening in the 2400, Reloder-7, and H4895 loads.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Comparison of Different Powders as Kickers in .223 with WC860.jpg  
    Last edited by MUSTANG; 11-23-2012 at 06:01 PM.

  17. #37
    Boolit Master madsenshooter's Avatar
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    It liked Unique didn't it? It'd be interesting to see what the pressures were for each kicker. Course you can tell some by the velocities attained. Keep at it, you're doing fine work here. Good record keeping! I can't help but wonder what 3gr of Bullseye would do.
    "If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny."

    -Thomas Jefferson

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by madsenshooter View Post
    It liked Unique didn't it? It'd be interesting to see what the pressures were for each kicker. Course you can tell some by the velocities attained. Keep at it, you're doing fine work here. Good record keeping! I can't help but wonder what 3gr of Bullseye would do.

    We will find out when I resume again in a couple of months. I will approach both Bullseye and HiSkor 700 more cautiously. Probably start with 2 Grains as a Kicker and then increase by 1/2 grain at a time watching for flattened primers and other pressure signs.

    Mustang

  19. #39
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    Mustang thanks for the report. Unique looks like the winner of this round of tests, the ES of 313 fps with the GD would give me pause though, hope it isn't a trend as you go faster speed kicker.
    Charter Member #148

  20. #40
    Boolit Master madsenshooter's Avatar
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    There will come a point where the load combination develops the pressure & temperature 860 needs to burn efficiently and yield about the same velocity as a powder one would normally use.
    "If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny."

    -Thomas Jefferson

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check