Graf & SonsRotoMetals2StainLess Steel MediaLee Precision
Inline FabricationBallisti-CastMidSouth Shooters SupplyTitan Reloading
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 34

Thread: MAS 36 in 308?

  1. #1
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    47

    MAS 36 in 308?

    A local shop has these, rechambered to 308 for $125. I have a feeling I know already.....but does anyone have any experience with these as a cast boolit plinker?

    For some reason I have always been intrigued by these ugly things.

  2. #2
    Boolit Man
    dabsond's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Dover, DE
    Posts
    115
    Converted by Century Arms I think. A lot of problems. Some consider them unsafe to shoot. The original 7.5 French has a considerably lower pressure.

    Sent from my DROID Pro using Tapatalk 2
    Dan Dabson
    Dover, DE
    http://www.facebook.com/dabsonshooting

    Stained Glass pieces made by my wife
    http://www.etsy.com/shop/connysstainedglass

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
    Freightman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Amarillo, Tx
    Posts
    2,934
    Buy you a Mosin, cheaper and safer, the Monkies at Century didn't get them right. Had 49/56 in 7.5 French and it was great, a friend had one in .308 it was a disaster wouldn't feed right or eject right, would pull the heads off the cases ect.
    Frank G.

  4. #4
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    47
    Pretty much what I thought. I'll avoid this like the plague. Seems Like Century has a lot of these kinds of issues.
    Thanks for saving me $125 and a lot of headaches!

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    On the Colorado River in Arizona
    Posts
    1,390
    Stay with the 7.5x54, when loaded correctly it is no slouch and comparable to the .7.62x51 (.308) as to velocities, pressures and accuracy.

    I can’t remember where, but have read the 7.5x54 pressure rating in the Mas 1936 is almost on par with .308. Which makes sense, as to Mas 1936 action strength, for a variant of the rifle chambered in 7.62x51 (.308) is still the standard sniper rifle for French military and police.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    5,829
    IIRC the French sniper rifle uses an action made on the same design as the MAS36 but these are not conversions, instead they are purpose built and to a higher quality. Sort of like the difference between an L42 rifle and the Enfield Enforcer, the Enforcer being purpose built of carefully tested components rather than rebarreled .303 WW2 actions as most L42 rifles had been.

    The older bolt actions converted to 7.62 NATO were intended for use with the NATO intenational standardized 7.62 Infantry Ball cartridges, which were limited to a 48,000 CUP average working pressure, same as the U S M80 Ball cartridge.

    The proof test pressures for 7.62 NATO milspec rifles was much lower than that of the modern .308 SAAMI proof testing pressures. And some long range 7.62 and .308 cartridges generate much higher pressures than the converted rifles had been expected to digest on a regular basis.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    On the Colorado River in Arizona
    Posts
    1,390
    IIRC, in France sporterized (no military calibers allowed for civilians) Mas 1936 rifles have been rebarreled and chambered for some rather high pressure cartridges. Think I have read the .260 Remington was one.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    5,829
    Quote Originally Posted by Hang Fire View Post
    IIRC, in France sporterized (no military calibers allowed for civilians) Mas 1936 rifles have been rebarreled and chambered for some rather high pressure cartridges. Think I have read the .260 Remington was one.
    A broad line of sporting rifles were built on the MAS 36 action mostly in calibers no longer considered as being military cartridges, though many of those chamberings had been military cartridges only few years earlier. 7.5 Swiss, 7X57 Mauser, and several other former military rounds and numerous dedicated sporting cartridges like the 7X54 Fournier which is the French 7.5 necked down to 7mm.
    Some of those rifles were very basic sporters, while a few I've seen images of were elegant rifles with engraving and fine carving and checkering on finely made aftermarket stocks.

    I'm not sure but the company that made these may have used newly built actions for their top of the line rifles, made on the same machinery as the military rifle but with the best post WW2 steels and no production pressures to speak of, much as the Sniper rifles were made.

    The action may be rebarreled for more intense cartridges, but it depends on the qualities of the individual rifle whether it holds up well over extended use with these cartridges.

    The .260 Remington has a SAAMI upper limit of 60,000 PSI, they don't list a CUP equivalent.
    Last edited by Multigunner; 07-13-2012 at 01:36 AM.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    On the Colorado River in Arizona
    Posts
    1,390
    For any and all questions/information on the Mas 1936 rifle can be found here. Forum: French Firearms Board: http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdis...Firearms-Board

    Some of the members are French and they are very knowledgeable.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    On the Colorado River in Arizona
    Posts
    1,390
    Re; Multigunner.

    I posed some questions over on the French Board forum, and got answers.

    "Was the metallurgy for the receiver steel changed over time ? ... NO
    Was the early manufacture less precise as to fit than later mfg ? ... NO

    Some of these weapons were chambered for the 7x54mm Fournier, 7x57mm, 8x60mm, 10.75x68mm in which the two latter calibers had integral muzzle brakes on them so they could handle exceptional pressures.

    Patrick "

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...80#post2213080

  11. #11
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Middle Alabama
    Posts
    9
    It makes a decent shooting/hunting gun in 7.5 as the peep sight is better than most leaf sights for quick target acquisition, and the compact length makes it easy to handle in a tree stand, etc. My only negative comment is the lack of a safety.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    5,829
    8x60mm, 10.75x68mm in which the two latter calibers had integral muzzle brakes on them so they could handle exceptional pressures.

    Patrick "
    Don't know about the 10.75 but the 8X60 is not a particularly hot cartridge (405 MPa =58,700 psi) lower max allowable pressure than the .308 , more along the lines of the 8mm-06 wildcat.
    Heres some load data on the 8X60 that I found posted here on CastBoolits
    I expect that due to the date of the information that the pressure figures are in Copper Units of Pressure rather than PSI by tranducer.
    From: Stoeger's Catalog and Handbook, 1939
    Ballistics of German DWM Cartridges - 1935
    8x60 117A - Soft-nosed round head - 226 gr - 2280 fps - 44082 psi
    299A - Soft-nosed round head - 196 gr - 2444 fps - 44082 psi
    354B - Soft-nosed pointed - 154 gr - 2920 fps - 51192 psi
    343C - Soft-nosed flat head - 198 gr - 2454 fps - 44082 psi
    473A - Strong jacket rd. head - 196 gr - 2418 fps - 45504 psi
    463A - Strong jacket Torpedo - 185 gr - 2510 fps / 2589 fps - 44082 psi / 46926 psi
    463K - Strong jacket Torpedo - 185 gr - 2510 fps / 2589 fps - 44082 psi / 46926 psi
    463HS - Strong jacket Torpedo - 185 gr - 2510 fps / 2589 fps - 44082 psi / 46926 psi
    Factory ammo is a hair hotter at 2700 FPS with circa 180 gr bullets.

    Muzzle brakes don't have any effect on chamber pressures.


    Edited to add
    I could not find the max allowable pressure of the 10.75X68 but ballistics charts show this cartridge was not a barn burner, closer to a hot .45-70 load or a light starter load for the .458.

    PS
    While the only MAS 36 rifles, including one of the minimally sporterized versions, were a bit beat up or showed signs of a roughly done overhaul, none showed any great care in fit or finish.
    The only top of the line factory sporters I've seen images of looked to have been very nicely put together.

    I had thought that the French F series sniper rifles were built on surplus milspec actions, but when I memtioned this a collector of French rifles linked me up with a site that explained that the sniper rifles were not built on surplus actions, but rather new purpose built actions from a subcontractor that had supplied actions or components and still had the machinery.
    Also while sporters often bear MAS markings on some components they also sometimes bear markings of a civilian manufacturer on receiver or barrel.

    While metalurgy had reached a high level of expertise in the pre WW2 years, there were advances made during and post war. Simply having less in the way of production pressures can greatly improve a product compared to pressures in the run up to a War that everyone except Neville Chamberlain saw coming.
    As it was not that many MAS 36 rifles were completed in time to arm French troops.

    I'm not saying a MAS 36 action will break down after a few rounds of hot ammo,thats is ammo exceeding the rather modest demands of cartridges the rifle was normally chambered for, but rather that assuming that the action is suited to max pressure .308 or 7.62 Long range heavy Ball loads could result in excessive premature wear.
    The complaints of mediocre to abysmal accuracy of MAS 36 rifles converted to .308 have to have a common denominator. I suspect it comes from using ammo not well suited to the action.
    I'd hate to invest in a quality .308 barrel then find the loads I was using were causing set back and throwing shots wild due to action body flex.

    Another PS
    While looking up Paul Mauser patents I found a rifle action he had designed in the 1880's that was the spitting image of the MAS 36.
    Last edited by Multigunner; 07-15-2012 at 09:57 AM. Reason: typo

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
    Ed in North Texas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,711
    Quote Originally Posted by Multigunner;1775935[INDENT
    ]

    snip

    Simply having less in the way of production pressures can greatly improve a product compared to pressures in the run up to a War that everyone except Neville Chamberlain saw coming

    snip.
    There are a number of historians who would disagree with that statement about war coming. And they would include Adolph Hitler among those who did not foresee war with France and England. Stalin's Soviet Union was a rather different story. Hitler wrote about "Drang noch Ost"in Mein Kampf, and history shows Germanic expansion to have consistently been to the East. There are lots of indicators which point to a lack of desire for a war with the West, or a desire to conquer "the world", including statements about not needing a large Navy, not having any long range aircraft in the Luftwaffe (or strategic bombers), etc. These historians believe Chamberlain blundered into war with his decision to go to war over Poland - which made no sense as Britain could not defend Poland (which, by the way, was a military dictatorship at the time) and had no interests in Eastern Europe.

    I'm not going to write a lengthy paper on the issue. It is easy to believe war was inevitable after the war starts. As for Hitler wanting a war his armed forces were neither designed, nor prepared, for - why just chalk it up to his being a megalomaniac. A megalomaniac who had gotten everything he wanted without firing a shot up to the point of Poland. And everything he had wanted, with the exception of his home country of Austria and the Rhineland occupation (which was already German territory), was to the East. Chamberlain put backbone into the Colonels running Poland, who believed the Brits would save them when they refused to negotiate on a road and train crossing of the "Polish Corridor" (to provide access to East Prussia) and return of Danzig to Germany. The records show Hitler willing to leave the rest of the corridor to Poland, give them commercial rights and they would still have their new seaport at Gdynia. Hitler wanted the Poles to ally with him, against their historic enemy the Russians. With Chamberlain's guarantee in their pocket (for what it was worth - nothing) they refused to negotiate. So Hitler did a deal with Stalin immediately before taking Poland. Poland was consigned to a brutal occupation by the Nazis and then 50 years of Soviet rule.

    None of this is to excuse Hitler from being the despot he was. I'm only taking issue with the idea that everyone but Chamberlain saw war between Germany and the West coming. But the victors usually write the history and it takes a while (if ever) before anyone questions it.

    Ed

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    On the Colorado River in Arizona
    Posts
    1,390
    Multigunner: The complaints of mediocre to abysmal accuracy of MAS 36 rifles converted to .308 have to have a common denominator. I suspect it comes from using ammo not well suited to the action."

    The .308 conversion faults can be summed up with three letters, "CIA" and they have a well earned name for Screw up's.

  15. #15
    Boolit Man
    dabsond's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Dover, DE
    Posts
    115
    Hold out for an original I picked this 1953 French MAS36 in original 7.5 French off of a member on another board. I had been looking for one of these to nearly complete my WWII bolt action collection. Although not WWII production I decided to go with this example as it was in very good, unfired condition. I like the carbine length and very easy to use sights. I put 40 7.5X54 Privi rounds through her yesterday and was pleased. A solid 3" grouping at 50 yards using 10 rounds. I really want to try her with cast boolits. I will probably start out using a Lyman 308334, 188grn over 17 grns of 2400. Same load I started out with on my K31.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCF4379.JPG 
Views:	24 
Size:	41.9 KB 
ID:	46008   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCF4381.JPG 
Views:	23 
Size:	24.7 KB 
ID:	46009   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCF4383.JPG 
Views:	24 
Size:	39.9 KB 
ID:	46010  
    Dan Dabson
    Dover, DE
    http://www.facebook.com/dabsonshooting

    Stained Glass pieces made by my wife
    http://www.etsy.com/shop/connysstainedglass

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    5,829
    Quote Originally Posted by Ed in North Texas View Post
    There are a number of historians who would disagree with that statement about war coming. And they would include Adolph Hitler among those who did not foresee war with France and England.
    France had been preparing for the German invasion almost since the end of WW1. Why else would they have built the Magninot line?
    While most of what would later become the Allies were busy trying to avoid getting dragged into what would be WW2, they all knew it was coming. They also knew that Hitler had built up an extremely effective air force, and seen it's baptism of fire in Spain.
    Not knowing is not the same as burying your head in the sand, as too many felt compelled to do.
    Last edited by Multigunner; 07-15-2012 at 08:58 PM. Reason: correcting typo

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    le Cannet south of FRANCE
    Posts
    327
    the civilians calibers for the mas 36 were made by an gunsmith Mr FOURNIER ,but in very small
    quantity perhaps less than 500 often the barel is an hammerli brand.
    no mas 36 were chambred for 308 in arsenal .
    the sniper rifle is the FR f1 in 7.5 and the FRf2 made in arsenal with new items
    be careful many french rifles, pistols come from africa with an lot of wear .
    here due the legislation many mas 36 in the 90 have the barrel change to 7/08 the range pressure is in same
    level than 308.
    hope i can help

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    165
    Quote Originally Posted by Multigunner View Post
    France had been preparing for the German invasion almost since the end of WW2. Why else would they have built the Magninot line?
    While most of what would later become the Allies were busy trying to avoid getting dragged into what would be WW2, they all knew it was coming. They also knew that Hitler had built up an extremely effective air force, and seen it's baptism of fire in Spain.
    Not knowing is not the same as burying your head in the sand, as too many felt compelled to do.
    Hi MG,You do mean"since the end of WW1" don,t you.Misinformation is as bad as "not knowing" isn,t it? Cheers,Mike.LOL

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    On the Colorado River in Arizona
    Posts
    1,390
    Quote Originally Posted by dabsond View Post
    Hold out for an original I picked this 1953 French MAS36 in original 7.5 French off of a member on another board. I had been looking for one of these to nearly complete my WWII bolt action collection. Although not WWII production I decided to go with this example as it was in very good, unfired condition. I like the carbine length and very easy to use sights. I put 40 7.5X54 Privi rounds through her yesterday and was pleased. A solid 3" grouping at 50 yards using 10 rounds. I really want to try her with cast boolits. I will probably start out using a Lyman 308334, 188grn over 17 grns of 2400. Same load I started out with on my K31.

    Looks to me like a standard refurb for LT storage, of which they look new. My 1945 came in the mummy wrap looking exactly the same.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    On the Colorado River in Arizona
    Posts
    1,390
    Quote Originally Posted by hardy View Post
    Hi MG,You do mean"since the end of WW1" don,t you.Misinformation is as bad as "not knowing" isn,t it? Cheers,Mike.LOL
    Like me, you knew what he meant. If I wanted to be picky too, would point out you should have double spaced after your first sentence, oh wait.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check