What alloy for 9mm HP's

[MBuechle]

Hi all. Just got a MP 358-125 mold and am starting to play. I'm casting for a PT92 with a bore slugged @ .357". I cast some with 50/50 Pb/WW +3% Sn. Haven't shot these yet. Read on another thread that more Sn than Sb will leave Sn trapped as nodules in the bullet and tin the bore. I had metallurgy in college ( a long time ago!) and understand this. My question is, what alloy will get me the ductility for the HP to work and still hold up @ max 9mm velocities? I've got pure lead, WW, superhard & Sn so I can make whatever I want. Haven't got the 9 shooting completely free of lead yet. Getting bullets to proper size helped immensely but I still get some @ 12 o'clock for the first inch of the bore on this gun. Only in the 12 o'clock position though. Maybe some copper fowling there? My .40, the first I've cast for, shoots lead free with Water dropped WW & 75% WW alloys.

[MtGun44]

No need for more than about 1.5-2% tin to get good fill out and tin is expensive so most don't
waste it. As to tinning the bore, sounds like baloney to me. Proper designs with good lube
probably won't work any different with a bit more tin, other than wasting money. I never make
up high tin alloys, so not 100% sure but I doubt it is an issue.

A .357 groove diam will need .358 or even .359 to work best, might have issues with the
chamber accepting ammo with boolits at .359 seated.

This might help a bit.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=121737



Bill

[fredj338]

It depends on HP design, but 20-1 should work fine to 1200fps+.

[MBuechle]

MTGUN44 - I've read that thread, it is good info and a re-read was done. Currently using Alox/JPW mix. It works fine in the .40 with 175 TL boolits. If it won't work in the 9 then I'll try pan lubing with NRA before I jump into a lubrisizer. I'm sizing to .358, actually the Mihec mold drops at this size but I run them through a push through any way. I had to lap my Lee 124 TL to get my boolits big enough but having done that, accuracy has been great and leading minimal with the Alox/JPW mix.

[MBuechle]

FREDJ338 - If I can get these to upset like that I'll be ecstatic! What did you shoot that into? Mine drop at 128 gr., I don't know if 1200 fps is doable in the 9mm but data shows 1150 with power pistol. I've also got about 4 lb. of 800X that I've been trying to find a use for so maybe that'll work.

[fredj338]

FREDJ338 - If I can get these to upset like that I'll be ecstatic! What did you shoot that into? Mine drop at 128 gr., I don't know if 1200 fps is doable in the 9mm but data shows 1150 with power pistol. I've also got about 4 lb. of 800X that I've been trying to find a use for so maybe that'll work.

That is a 4pt HP, pushed along in a 357sig & shot into wetpack. I can get good expansion @ 9mm vel with that bullet too.

[MtGun44]

It is good news if you are getting the Alox/JPW to work in 9mm. Some have good results,
many have problems. Very glad to hear of anyone with success. Somehow the window of
success seems fairly small with LLA and mixes, but clearly it CAN work.

Bill

[canyon-ghost]

I'd say your 50/50 may work, pure lead would too. I made some of wheelweight that were too hard. I think softer is better when you want a hollowpoint to work.

Ron

[MtGun44]

No question that too hard an alloy will prevent the hp from opening, but this is entirely
dependent on three issues - 1) HP diam & wall thickness (interlinked) 2) alloy hardness
and malleability 3) velocity.

Not trivial to get just what you want. Too hard can still open at high enough velocity, but
then often is brittle and fragments (Linotype will do this). I have several differnt pins for
some of my HP molds, use them depending on velocity and alloy.

Ultimately, testing in a "suitable medium" is required. I use saturated newspapers or
phone books. Expansion matches ballistic gel exactly, but penetration is about half as
deep as in gel.

Bill

[fredj338]

I'd say your 50/50 may work, pure lead would too. I made some of wheelweight that were too hard. I think softer is better when you want a hollowpoint to work.

Ron

As MtGun notes, HP design is more important to a point than alloy. At some BHN, the bullet is NOT going to expand regardless of HP design. A really large HP will fragment & leave the bbase, but not mushroom. Cup points seem to offer the most useful range of expansion w/ diff alloys. This 45-70 was 1600fps into wetpack. It's cast of range scrap, sim to 50/50 ww/lead alloy. I am going to try water dropping that next for a bit less expansion & greater penetration, hopefully better accuracy too.

[45 2.1]

Hi all. Just got a MP 358-125 mold and am starting to play. I'm casting for a PT92 with a bore slugged @ .357". I cast some with 50/50 Pb/WW +3% Sn. Haven't shot these yet. Read on another thread that more Sn than Sb will leave Sn trapped as nodules in the bullet and tin the bore. I had metallurgy in college ( a long time ago!) and understand this. My question is, what alloy will get me the ductility for the HP to work and still hold up @ max 9mm velocities? I've got pure lead, WW, superhard & Sn so I can make whatever I want. Haven't got the 9 shooting completely free of lead yet. Getting bullets to proper size helped immensely but I still get some @ 12 o'clock for the first inch of the bore on this gun. Only in the 12 o'clock position though. Maybe some copper fowling there? My .40, the first I've cast for, shoots lead free with Water dropped WW & 75% WW alloys.

Use your alloy without the tin addition and water drop them from the mold.

[MBuechle]

OK, I got to the range today. First load tested was 5.5gr. of Power Pistol. It grouped nicely and produced only light lead in the last inch of barrel. Fired into a pair of milk jugs of water, the nose fragged in the first jug, multiple entrance holes in the second jug. Velocity was 1104 average. Looks like I need something softer or less speed. Lube was Lqd. Alox/JPW and tumbled. Looks like I need a better lube. The second load was 4.7gr. HiSkor 800X, clocked @ 980, grouped looser than the first, no lead, but soot on some cases. I'll try to get pix up.

ETA: Pic. Target was 25yds., barrel on sandbag rest.

[IMG][/IMG]

[MBuechle]

45 2.1,
I'll try that. Thats my normal plinking alloy. See my pic above. I thought too brittle, but maybe to soft? I also have round HP pins that I'll try.

Mark

[fredj338]

Certainly getting fragmentation. With a deep/wide HP like taht, I would slow the bullet down closer to 1000fps or get more of the antimony out of it by adding more pure lead, maybe 2-1 lead/clip ww with just 3% tin. Sounds like @ 1100fps your lube is running out too.

[MBuechle]

Update. I tried 15:1 and 50/50+1%Sn, both fired into a gallon water jug and caught in a sandbag. I like the 50/50 better and also the penta HP. Had to make a powder funnel for my 550B to keep from swaging the bullets down. This was the final key. Used White Label BAC as suggested and I like. Very minor lead that is easily cleaned. I don't know the penetration potential, I'll have to try to make up some wet pack some time and see. Currently very happy with this.

[Bullet Caster]

Looks to me that you're on the right track. BC

[dnmccoy]

This is relevant to what I want to do. I ordered the same mold, plan on doing the same thing. How did you make your own powder funnel, as I have a 550 and imagine will run into the same issue

[fredj338]

Yeah, now yo uare talking. As far as penetration, the bigger the expaned bullet the less penetration, unless you have a lot of mass behind it.

[MBuechle]

dnmccoy, I made mine on a lathe at work. Miha just posted about making these for people and also lathesmith will make these and it really is important to prevent leading.

fredj338, thanks. I understand the penetration vs. expansion theory, just have no practical experience with it yet. That said, these should penetrate better than a 115 J-word HP as they cast out at about 128 gr. I've got an MP 402-190 WFN/HP on the way to play with next, WHOO-HOO!

[noylj]

Never shot a cast HP, so take this for what it is:
For 40 years, about all I have fired in 9x19 are 124gn L-SWCs cast from wheel weights and just enough tin (type metal) to get mold fill-out.
The 9mm is NOT a high velocity round that might require a hard alloy.
Currently, my bullets are simply as-cast and lightly tumble-lubed in LLA. This works in P-08s, P-38s, P-35s, 1911s, CZ75s, and a S&W 5906. Bullets are 0.357-0.358".