The current question is:
Originally Posted by TCTex
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The current question is:
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote
Benjamin Franklin
Jim, I am not going to debate or rebuttal you this time.
PLEASE STOP POSTING ON MY THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote
Benjamin Franklin
I would lean toward a 340 grain bullet.
Its really a funny thing. Cape buffalo and water buffalo have been killed with good shot placement with 44 mag revolvers.
we forget about JD Jones, Larry Kelly, Hal Siggett killed a couple or so Bison with a 44 Mag revolver with a 45/8's barrel plus other game bigger than whitetail deer. and others that used the 44 Mag and took large, larger and largest big game with a revolver.
Ross Seyfried went to Africa in thwe 80's with a 4 Inch M29 with a 250 Keith and shot through both shoulders of Greater Kudu with that bullet.
Bill Wilson killed Cape Buffalo and Maned African Lion wutht he same 300 gr bullet load.
I know this isn't done everyday but what are we going to kill that a 340 gr bullet at 2-3 hundred fps more won't kill?
Most of us won't see africa or go on a big game hunt in alaska.
But it is fun to experiment with a 500 gr bullet though. Why stick to the staus quo.
I have fun shooting that is what it is about and experimenting is part of it.
I failure on a kudu and the loss of the animal with the .44 mag pushed Ross into the .45 Colt and he said the following about using the .44 mag in Africa: "Many could be taken with the .44 Magnum, but I always felt like I was asking a boy to do a man’s job.”
He always felt a bit undergunned in Africa with his .44 mag.
But, that is neither here, nor there.
I think you would be well served by trying a number of different bullets weights, conventional "wisdom" be damned.
Semper Fidelis
As I have stated before, my barrel is shooting the 250gr FTX, which was designed for rifle speeds, and will take anything in the lower 48. That bullet was designed for the 450 bushmasters and is a tuff bullet. I have the 300gr Lee LBT and I am still currently working with it. I am going to order a 454 sizer and see if it helps any. It have had better accuracy shooting a 359 in my 357’s and a 379 in my 375’s in my TC for some reason. The exception to that rule would be my 414 SM which has to be sized to 410 to chamber and will not accept the 411 dummy rounds. But that is off topic and neither here or there…
My good friend Toby had a 500+gr bullet mold for the 45-70 that I am going to try. Am I going to hunt with it… probably not. Why am I going to try it… because I can.
I have been asking questions about an optimal bullet weight just because I value the experience on the sight and realize that it can save me time and money with molds that are expensive. Thanks for the help so far and I am listing… I also realize that I have a 460 is capable of shooting a 300gr projectile to the equivalent of a 45-70 in a handgun platform. So yes, it is a monster. I have 18 TC barrels, I just want to know what this 460 monster is capable of and what is the best way to “push” it.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote
Benjamin Franklin
OK---
When I see a response like this on the forum , it doesn't set well with me. You ask a question and Open a discussion , so you get responses that you may not want to hear even if they make a lot of sense or come from someone elses experiences.
The whole forum Idea is to exchange information and thoughts and to share experiences while promoting our Hobby. Just because something is posted doesnt mean you have to listen or act on what they say , or argue about it.
You may not like what someone says because it doesnt meet with your line of thinking , but it might be something you should consider in reality.I read all the posts and people here try to help with bits of Info and their experiences too.
We are all very passionate about our casting, loading and shooting on here and I see some experiments posted here that make me cringe sometimes with guys trying to push the envelope and know what I have experienced in 40 years of competition and hunting Loads I have tried that were a complete failure. We didnt have forums to discuss things like this back in the stone age...And I have seen many guns that became junk from someones experiment that failed.
Thank God my Contender was stronger than my wrists were...
You Know You Might Be Facing your DOOM , if all you get is a click, Instead of a BOOM !
If God had wanted us to have Plastic gun stocks he would have planted plastic Trees !
I agree 100% on both comments! Great comment. (I put them adjacent to each other because I feel like they go hand in hand.)
If you go look on the original Heavy for Caliber 460 Projectile I had that problem. I had to humble myself to realize the question I really asked and take the response’s from the users at heart. Firsthand experience of users on this wonderful sight that said they were shooting 500 + gr projectiles out of an encore platform. And if you look here in post 23 I took the advice of the users to heart to contact Accurate molds to have a custom mold made to my chamber, regardless of weight…
It bothers me that I keep asking questions and “I” don’t feel like Jim has yet to answer my question of an optimal bullet weight. Yet instead he has decided to put other users down and disprove them. I hope my posts here show that I am keeping an open mind. Start at the beginning and look at where my mind has started. It has gone from 500gr to 365gr projectile. I don’t think Jim sees that, or again, my feelings say he has chosen not to comment on it. However, it could be in his wording. However, I feel like I am not the only person here with those feelings. I have gotten quite a few phone calls, texts, and PM’s that indicate we have a problem in this thread.
Again I agree 100% but this really bothered me…
IMHO, he is blatantly putting down users on this post that have firsthand experience of shooting 500gr projectiles in a 454. That isn’t right and isn’t kosher IMHO…
My answer was simple…
My comment there was one of disbelief. Why would multiple users on this sight steer me wrong? Even more importantly, would anyone on this sight purposely steer me wrong?? When I read that statement by Jim that is what I read. Not that it isn’t possible to shoot a heavy bullet, but that users are lying to me!
I have agreed with everything you have said, I can’t argue with anything at all!Ya’ll are still awesome. It is amazing what happens when you keep an open mind.
Just remember I am here to learn and I have been soaking up both sides of this conversation. All I want to know is where the happy medium is… LOL
Take Care, God Bless, and thank everyone for their responses and passionate answers, it means we care!!!
I can’t argue with this:
It just means we have a problem. It may be me, but I will work on my part…
With the greatest respect and admiration,
Duane
I am not trying to be a trouble maker. If I was I would be asking every person I know to send you a pm and tell them their true feelings about this subject. However that wouldn’t be right, would just waste your time and do nothing but give you a headache.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote
Benjamin Franklin
"I failure on a kudu and the loss of the animal with the .44 mag pushed Ross into the .45 Colt and he said the following about using the .44 mag in Africa: "Many could be taken with the .44 Magnum, but I always felt like I was asking a boy to do a man’s job.” "
I just stated what he told me over the phone. If he would have had a 320 gr bullet from maybe a 71/2 incher the failure may not have happened.
What was his alloy?
If one will talk to Randy Garrett on his ammo or Tim sundles on his 44 Mag stuff it will become apparent as to what i was trying to say.
Failures will continue to happen . That is a fact of life.
And so life goes on.
I don't know what the balisitcs of the 460 are in a 17" carbine, but let's assume somewhere along the lines of the 45-70 marlin. To my way of thinking, when using a cast bullet to hunt with from a rifle the sweet spot in velocity is in the 1800-2000 fps range. I have many friends that hunt with 45-70 guide guns and the consensus on cast bullets for hunting are 400-430 gr bullets.
When you get to the point that you are getting consistant exits on game from all angles you'll be shooting, you don't gain anything by going to a heavier bullet. Your impact revolicity is reduced, which decreases the dia of the wound, your trajectory is more arched which requires range compensation at closer distances, and your longer bullet is less stable in both air and flesh. As I stated before, there is a point at which if you wan't more power, you have to increase bullet dia, not just weight.
To me the only reason some people have gone to 500 gr 45 caliber bullets is to somehow believe their 45-70's are equivalent to a 458 win mag or 458 lott, just because they shoot the same weight bullet, albeit at much lower velocities. It simply ain't so.
You want well balanced, you've been given advice. You want to experiment, nothing wrong with that. Remember alot of this is semantics as in the majority of hunting situations you can kill game with much, much, much less powerful weapons. If a 44 mag with a 250 gr is enough, then arguing which is better between a 400 or 500 gr 460 is really mute. Either will work. If you want to hunt the world with 500's out of your 460, go for it.
Paul, damn good comment and I am listening. You are correct, the only reason I will try a heavy bullet is because I already have a mold I can borrow and I don’t have to spend the money to buy one. I have even had a user offer to send me heavy cast bullets because they didn’t want me to wast money on a mold that would eventually be of no use to me… A great sight filled with people who care!!
I know I could hit the 1800-2000 fps sweet spot you are suggesting. The new Lyman manual lists a 325gr cast bullet in a 15in barrel with vel between 1800-1900. Honestly, the more I read I think I should just stick with my 300gr Lee LBT mold for hunting.
The bottom TC in the picture is my 460 S&W. It was a 20in custom shop that was cut down to 15.5in before the break was added. OAL is 17.5
Last edited by TCTex; 06-29-2012 at 05:43 PM. Reason: spelling
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote
Benjamin Franklin
Perhaps you are correct. I know, I talk to Ross on a regular basis, but he never felt completely happy with the .44 and much prefered the .45 -- still does for that matter. I too believe the .429 Magnum comes into its own with a 300 to 320 grain bullet, any heavier and you might as well step up in diameter and get that benefit as well.
Semper Fidelis
If you can load to that 1800+ range you can hunt anything. I think extra weight that lowers velocity below that would be counter productive. If you borrow a mold and try some different weights before you design a mold...
I have shot Cast performance and beartooth bullets to try a weight. I wasn't sure about. Decided I didn't need a 500 gr for my 45-70. Lost to much vel. I also like about 425gr in it.
I am not sure what you mean by losing something with lower velocity. I know that a 600 grain bullet from a 45-70 is nearly impossible to stop. They shoot through everything and we were never able to catch one. Any velocity much over 1400 FPS with cast bullets has decreased penetration in my experience
So is a 425gr at 1900 with a large meplat making a big whole. If you are getting full pen how much more do you need?
If you want to shoot something that heavy have fun with it. It would turn my marlin into a very short range rifle.
Another point is the very heavy boolits are not fun when shot in a 7lb levergun. I just do this for the fun. Shot some 560 gr wasn't fun.
Last edited by bearcove; 06-29-2012 at 08:23 PM.
I don't get the commit that heavy bullets turn a 45-70 into a short range rifle. I know that Bill Bagwell shot 500 grainers with black powder for about 1300'ish fps and he took an animal at around 570 yards with one shot. Long range shooting is about accuracy and correcting for bullet drop, not that hard once one learns how
If you are shooting a sharps or old style single shot with sights set up to correct elevation, like a tang sight, you are correct. A receiver mounted ghost ring on a Marlin is not going to work that way. I shoot 350 gr most and they shoot very flat compared to a 600gr. Makes for a 150 yd rifle that is handy and light to carry.
Hi TC,
I'm sorry I missed thread #1 and now thread #2! I have thousands of rounds behind me in my BFR 460 (10 inch barrel, 1 in 16 twist) and here is what I learned so far:
1. Light bullets are no good. Best for the gain twist barrels.
2. Optimum weight is 425 grains. Optimum design is as much bearing surface as you can get on the bullet.
3. 525 grain bullets work great. That's the biggest bullet I've tried so far.
4. 340-370 is an anti sweet spot in my gun for some reason. They tumble. 200-300 doesnt, 400-525 doesnt. I can't explain it. Can't be bothered to figure it out. 425's shoot well.
5a. 300 LEE sucks from my BFR. Your Mileage May Vary. Only way I can get it to shoot is to shoot it REALLY slow. May as well own a 45 colt to shoot this bullet!
5b. 500 grain GC lee shoots WAY better. In fact, it's the #2 bullet for my gun.
6. Optimal velocities are in the 1000-1350 fps range. 500 grains at 1200-1250 fps and the brass slides right out of my cylinder. I'm sure I could push to well over 1400 fps, but why? The recoil is pleasant when shooting 500/1200. I still need to chrono my best loads @ 425 grains when I get the red-dot situation fixed. predicted 1300-1400 fps.
7. Most unpleasant loads are 200 grains @ 2400+, and 500 grains at 1350+. They are both loud and recoil too much. I believe both are affecting my group size directly. 500/1200 feels like a solid 454 Casull kind of recoil.
8. Best powder for me so far has been 4198, both H and IMR. I like IMR better which is weird because in general I prefer H-everything. Second place is definitely SR4759. In any case you are looking at about 25 grains of powder. In MY GUN, 25 grains of IMR 4198 with a 500 grain bullet is around 11XX fps. The brass falls out of my cylinder under gravity. I haven't pushed pressure limits because I see no need to. That load will allow you to seat the bullet .8" into the case before you reach powder compression, roughly. This should still chamber your gun but is close. Won't fit an X-frame.
9. There's data online for a 500 grain bullet using lilgun. I don't use that powder but it's easy to correlate lilgun with H110 (interpolate, not using the same charge weights!) and "entry level" loads are around 1350-1400 fps. I gave up on those real quick. They group fine, and they are not fun to shoot. There are no wild buicks roaming the lands where I hunt.
10. My load development process has been matching "about" 75% the loads for 45/70, given the cartridge is a very similar design and holds about 75% of the water weight. This with a little caution and care taken to come up with starting loads and lengths has OPENED UP the possibilities for my experimentation, and has been almost as helpful to me as asking the good people on this forum for help.
I'm sure there is more, but that's it off the top of my head. Check out the ranch dog mold in 458 if you haven't already. It's awesome.
Last edited by Whiterabbit; 07-01-2012 at 01:47 AM.
11. I have so much freebore in my revolver, I almost guarantee my velocities will be higher than yours, potentially. my 3"cyl, 1-16, 10" bfr is faster than a 2.3" cyl, gain twist (1-20), 12" smith and wesson X-frame.
Dunno if your barrel length is sufficient to make up for my freebore (or whatever is actually causing the sharp increase in actual velocity.)
IMO:
get the LEE 500 grain 2 cavity mould. It's only 20 bucks and gets you the ability to try the 500 grainers. With lube and gas check you are looking at 510+ grains-ish. There's not enough bearing surface and the nose is all wrong, but they shoot. Only 20 bucks....
Then you won't be out $100 for a super nice mold, and can spend that on the real shooter mould.
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