Surplus powders in the 444marlin ?

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Has anyone tried any of the surplus powders ( especially WC 860) in the 444 Marlin lever action?
Thinking with a 277gr, GC boolit?

7/2/12
At this time I am going to expand my discussion in this thread to include all bullet weights & any powder.

[6pt-sika]

deleted

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive shot some 844 in the 444 and it did well.

[Kestrel4k]

My first thought was WC820 (which I've got a bit of experience with in other calibers) so I did some cross-referencing. That one appears to be unsuitable for the .444. I know that you were asking about 860, but thought we might exclude my guess right off. Sorry I can't be more help,

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
The powders I have on the shelf are:
WC 860
WC 846
H 414
2400
WC 820

The last 2 might do for squib loads.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I have 3 boolits to play with.
The Lyman 250gr, GC Kieth style SWC.
The 265 gr GC , Ranch Dog which drops out at 277gr. when sized & lubed.
The Lee 310 gr GC which drops out as 325grs. when sized & lubed.

It would be nice if I could use ether WC 860 or WC 846 which I have.

[Marlin Junky]

For a heavy hitter look to 846 and the Lee boolit. About 50 grains should get your attention. You're wasting your time with the two slower powders and 846 may even be a tad slow with a carbine length barrel... use a mag primer.

2400 and WC-820 can be useful in circa 20 grain doses with light boolits.

Re7, the 4198's and 2200-2230-H335 sphercials are probably the most useful powders for the 444. Certain lots of WC-846 may fall into this spherical burn range as well. 50+ grains of H335 worked very well for me with Lee C430-310.

MJ

[Jim]

I don't own a 444 nor have I ever loaded for one. I have, though, been loading for .45-70s over ten years with milsurp powders. I have successfully used IMR 7383, WC 820 and WC 860.

[Maven]

BB, Let me know how you do with WC 820 and 2400. Btw, 10gr. -12gr. Unique may be worth considering if you don't mind purchasing another powder.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I started this thread here & then in Canister & Surplus powders as they seemed the most logical places.
I usually do not do parallel threads but wanted to get as much input as I could before embarking on my latest project. So now there are also parallel threads in PET LOADS & CAST BULLETS.
I am trying to buy back my old 1970 era 444 marlin rifle, which I sold along with the dies & several hundred pieces of brass. This guy does not reload & has about shot them all up. So he has mentioned to me at least 3 times he is thinking of selling it. So I have made 3 offers to buy it back.
I will now focus my efforts here, as this is where the most interest has occurred.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I want to thank all those who have made comments so far. Not only here but in personal messages, & in parallel threads.

Before I go any farther, I would like to request that who feel inclined to make comments of caution to me, or comments to other posters ( ESPECIALLY TO SENIOR MEMBERS OF THIS BOARD) on their posts & helpful input, to try to be polite. You might want to not only look at not only the number of posts but at the join date, some of us were at 2 other boards & posting there before this one was created. I myself stayed with the other previous boards for almost a year each before joining this one and read all the older posts & printed out much info as I worried that the old boards would disappear. So as a result I did not join & start posting here for over a year after this board was started.

I have noticed that many of our wiser & more knowledgeable members are posting less & less.
THIS IS A GREAT LOSS!
Many of them have made it known to me that they find some of the newbie/greenhorns comments insulting.
I AM NOT SAYING THE NEWER MEMBERS DON'T HAVE KNOWLEDGE & GOOD INFORMATION TO IMPART!
They enrich the board.
So please remember that the older members have been doing this for 40-50 yrs.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
There is a definite trend in posts in several boards, including here favoring heavy bullets.
However there are a lot of lighter bullets that fill a useful function, are flatter at short range ( with full powder loads), are cheaper & more pleasant to shoot. They are easily adequate for small game & practice.
They can of course be used in 44 mag pistols (my usage) and rifles.
Here is a list of the ones that have been around since at least 1970. some existed in both cast & jacked versions.
120 gr. r. ball,129gr.,158gr.,170 gr.,180 gr., 185gr.,200gr.205 gr.,210gr.,215gr.,220gr.
I have data for the 170gr., 180 & 185 gr., 200 &205 gr., 215gr. if any of you want some of this data ask. Some of this data is for squib loads.
The only one I have used is the 180gr. The cast version has taken game up to smaller deer size.
I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND ANY OF THE JACKED VERSIONS FOR DEER AT FULL VELOCITY IN THE 444 MARLIN.
But the 180gr. & up wt. bullets have all taken deer in the past for many, at 44mag. pistol velocity.
In fact the 120gr. round ball has taken deer out of muzzle loaders, while the 158gr. has taken over 100 deer for Jerry Lister out of the 357 mag. pistol (smaller dia.)
These weight bullets would not be my personal choice for deer,hogs,or any other big game species.
If you have knowledge of other lite weight bullets, I have not listed please post something about them.

[Ron.D]

I've done some experimenting with WC 820. Encouraged with help from Maven and Beagle, I've tried it in the 45-70 and 444. The 45-70 seemed to like filler, but it worked to satisfaction. The 444 seemed to like it quite well without filler. With a 265 gr. boolit, 24 grs. got me close to 1600 ft/sec. and 25 grs. just a bit faster but the group seemed to tighten just a bit (3" at 100 with 3X scope) Please use the usual cautions and start a little lower and work up. I always use a magnum primer with WC 820 and don't start too low. It's a ball powder after all, and may show signs of pressure sensitivity, although I've found it more user friendly than some would have you believe. Ron.D

[BOOM BOOM]

Ron.D
Thanks for the info......thanks for the safety reminder.
YES! I definitely will follow all the usual precautions.

I have been reloading & casting since 1969. I have been involved with wildcatting since 1970.
That was when I first met P.O. ACLEY (SP) IIRC.
He was a great target barrel maker & wildcater here in Utah. He was an internationally known gunsmith, wrote reloading manuals, wrote for gun magazines. Many of todays factory cartridges came directly from his exploratory work. He gave us a great deal of information on action strength.
He started before there were pressure barrels & sensor systems.
I learned a lot from him.
Also I have taken 2 collage gunsmithing courses.

I am not really a big fan of duplex loads, BUT IF DONE CORRECTLY, it can be a useful tech. Luckily duplexing can often be avoided by switching powders, a safer way to achieve the same goal. But I admit to having done it.

As some of you know using FILLERS IS ALSO A DEBATABLE PRACTICE. Especially in straight walled cases, due to possible chamber ringing. But it does Prevent S.E.E. type explosions. So it is also a useful tech. IF DONE CORRECTLY , fillers work. I have done it in bottle neck cases many 1,000's of times. Luckily the use of FILLERS CAN OFTEN BE AVOIDED BY JUST SWITCHING POWDERS.

[Marlin Junky]

Actually... I just pulled out my "444 Vol II, The Light Loads" and noticed that 25 grains of 4759 shoots like its got eyes with everything from 240 grain Sierras to my 345 grain Accurate Mold. I've also had good experiences with 2400 but 820 proved to do much better in the 30-30 than it did in the 444... which is probably the reason I started using 4759 in the 444. Of course your expectations and experiences may be different. My 444 is the "Outfitter" with a 18.5" barrel that's got "Deep Cut Ballard Rifling" which is approximately .0025" deep with a 1:20" twist. The nice thing about 4759 is that you don't need to use special alloy handling techniques to get fine accuracy at 1600 fps; i.e., good 'ol air cooled WW metal (2+ week aging) works very well.

Oh yeah, I never got PB's to shoot worth a darn at much over 1300 fps.

MJ

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Thanks for your input , MARLIN JUNKIE.

I forgot to mention COMPRESSED LOADS, in the background post # 14.

COMPRESSED LOADS are also a problem for some reloaders. Once again we have a useful tech. that IF DONE CORRECTLY , HAS SOME ADVANTAGES.
I admit I have done this too, OH WELL I'M INCORRIGIBLE.
Yes, it can be harder to do, & with some powders might not be a good tech., you might have to buy ( or make) a drop tube.
It allows you to get higher vel. with some powders, if you just fill the case with some powders there is NO CHANCE of an overload, & bullets will almost never telescope into case under recoil.

[9.3X62AL]

MJ et al--

I was wondering about the use of heavier-for-caliber bullets/boolits in the 444 Marlins, since a lot of them use (or used) the old 44-40 twist rate of 1:38". Your post cleared that up some, a 1:20" pitch rate would keep the longer slugs going point-first.

I have avoided the 444 Marlin caliber due to its slow twist rate. I've always thought that element really held the caliber back.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
An old HANDLOADER magazine stated stated that the old slow twist microgroove barrels would not stabilize bullets over 325gr.
This has been disproved decisively. Bullet was the problem.
Many have had good results with the RANCH DOG 350GR. (RECOIL OUCH) & even with various 400gr. bullets(RECOIL OUCH).

I will stop with my Lee 310gr. wfn mold. It actually drops finished bullets that weigh 325gr. more than enough for anything of this Continent.

I am still dickering to buy back my old 444 Marlin.
BOY I DID A STUPID!
Only excuse is I was out of work & had to feed the wife & kids.

[9.3X62AL]

I am still dickering to buy back my old 444 Marlin.
BOY I DID A STUPID!
Only excuse is I was out of work & had to feed the wife & kids.

That's a REASON, and a good one--not an excuse by any means.

[Marlin Junky]

If I was going to purchase a 444 with the intention of shooting nothing longer than Lee C430-310, I would look for an older one (actually one of the first ones) with 12 "MicroGrooves". I hate to tell you guys, but the MicroGrooves of the late 60's were deeper than the "Deep Cut Ballard Style" rilfing Marlin switched to in 1998-2000. Reason #2 for preferring an older gun is the slower twist that may allow the use of softer alloys. My 6-groove fast twist "smooth bore" really prefers Lyman #2 or harder. With that being said, I have not done any expansion testing or hunting with the 1:20" 444 ('99 vintage) and heat treated or water dropped castings; therefore, I can't speak to it's effectiveness on game. I'm pretty sure however, that the old barrels would produce better results with 250-300 grain PB boolits than the new millennium barrels.

MJ