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Thread: 577/450 Martini Henry Case Problem

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
    Ed in North Texas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by martinibelgian View Post
    That active filler - sorry, it doesn't work as advertised: The CoW will NOT burn in the barrel, and tends to separate out from the powder (even a card wad won't burn, it won't even have scorch marks). For me, it most certainly is not the solution some claim. Accuracy is done by eliminating variable, and fillers (mixed or not) are a variable added, sometimes very difficult to control. Usually, simpler is better IMO.
    I certainly will try your method, KISS almost always works better. And I don't think I'd use anything less than 1F granulation in these huge cases (.577 and .577-450 are my largest cases and dwarf my .50-70 in capacity).

    I could be mistaken, but I believe that those who I consider knowledgeable (e.g. Douglas - Double D) have never claimed the COW was burned. My understanding is that the BP mixed with the COW prevents the COW from clumping and results in the COW being ejected from the cartridge case as granules.

    Ed

  2. #22
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    No, Douglas wouldn't claim that, he knows better - that claim was made by others. FWIW, DD did say he had issues with it separating out, and the near impossiibility of getting a uniform mix of powder and CoW.
    Also, CoW is pretty hard, and I don't exactly consider it advisable to shoot through a soft steel barrel under pressure, where it could act as an abrasive. I might be overly cautious, but ...
    Kapok would be a good filler - note I said filler, not wad. But again, with a rough bore, you'll bemoan the fact that you even tried it... Lots of cleaning to get the resultant mess out of the bore.
    Still, that military martini will shoot with surprising accuracy if you get it right - actually much better than the sights will allow you to. But it does take a lot of effort to get there. Howewer, the end result is more than worth the trouble. And even those sights aren't as bad as they seem at 1st glance...

  3. #23
    Boolit Master
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    a trick i did 30 year ago was to trun out al. cases and bore them out to take a .45-70 case. on firing the brass case fromed out the the al. case and was easy to reload using .45-70 data.

  4. #24
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    Just got my N.D.F.S. brass today. It is turned brass and about 70gr. capacity. Very nice looking, will have to see how it shoots.
    Dave

    In 100 years who of us will care?
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  5. #25
    Boolit Mold
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    Last year I used COTW data and loaded 38 grs. of IMR 4198 under a 405 LRN wrapped with masking tape to .470 and Puff-Lon to the top of the case in my MK 4. Shot 12-14" high at 100 yds. No problems with extraction. Some say that 38 grs. is taking a big risk, so next time I'll use 34-36.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beekeeper View Post
    Herbert, Martinibelgen,
    I have heard of cotton and wool being used as a filler, mostly just to take up the space and keep the powder against the primer.
    Could dacron be used succesfully?
    I use it in a lot of smokeless loads and it works quite well.
    It is very similar to cotton.


    beekeeper
    I have never used it but have been told it does not work well with BP

  7. #27
    Boolit Master The Double D's Avatar
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    My ears are burning and my BS alarm is going off.

    CoW does not burn, it goes out the barrel. It also does not stay mixed, it separates out.


    Straight from the loading bench to range, handled gently, the powder stays together and does shot well. Drive a few miles and across bumpy road, or move the ammo box a few times before shooting and the CoW and powder will separate. Or fly you ammo to South Africa and back and it will separate

    As to the shoulder separating, you guys have covered one thing pretty good and could be right, the granulated solid may have ripped the neck off. Puffalon will stretch necks and may do this also.

    The best evidence that CoW did this is the fact the neck is swaged to the shape of the rifling. It took a lot of force to do that.

    Use foam or fiber filler.

    There is one other thing I see.

    Quote Originally Posted by mtnman31 View Post




    .
    It appears the brass was not new unfired. It appears based on top round to have been fired before and reloaded.

    You should not switch fired brass from one rifle to another. That is a standard warning for modern rifles with standardized chambers. It should be a rule in ther Martini with their non standard chambers.

    The only part of a Martini chamber that is close to standard is the head area. The ogee shoulder can be just about any length and any radius. If that brass was fired in a chamber that was a bit longish and then full length resized and the shoulder bumped that can harden that junction and make it brittle.

    Other concerns even if it was new unfired brass is annealling. Was this brass annealled after forming and before loading.

    All these thing along with solid filler below the neck could lead to the separation.

    Reference the loose powder and air space myth. If you really want understand the phenomena get Charles Dell's "The Modern Schuetzen Rifle" and Greame Wrights "Shooting the British Double Rifle" for the straight educated description.

    Done right there is no hazard from shooting with an airspace.
    Last edited by The Double D; 06-29-2012 at 09:39 AM.
    Douglas, Ret.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master mtnman31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Double D View Post

    There is one other thing I see.

    It appears the brass was not new unfired. It appears based on top round to have been fired before and reloaded.
    The brass had not been fired. I annealed before and after case forming. I used the Lee die set to form my cases.
    A visual of the fired case doesn't show any major differences between the unfired and fired case. I will have to put it to the micrometer and digital headspace gauge to compare the fired vs unfired case.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master The Double D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnman31 View Post
    The brass had not been fired. I annealed before and after case forming. I used the Lee die set to form my cases.
    A visual of the fired case doesn't show any major differences between the unfired and fired case. I will have to put it to the micrometer and digital headspace gauge to compare the fired vs unfired case.
    From its discoloration looks previously fired. The bright ring on the shoulder also is indicative of shoulder bump. It also is indicative box rub.

    Do a comparision of shoulders and you will see the ogee shoulder.

    By the way if you built those cases using just the Lee Dies you did a bunch of work and did a darn good job. That would also explain the shoulder bump. Can't be helped.

    By the way when do you get back to MT. I am planning on putting on a Victorian rifleman Provincial Shoot in Cut Bank 2014.
    Douglas, Ret.

  10. #30
    Beekeeper
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    Double D,
    If I may ask what type of foam and or fiberfill?
    Would you please elaborate!
    Have been using cotton as Norm Sutton recommended but am always looking for something better!

    Beekeeper

  11. #31
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    Ed in North Texas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Double D View Post
    My ears are burning and my BS alarm is going off.

    CoW does not burn, it goes out the barrel. It also does not stay mixed, it separates out. snip
    Douglas,

    Except for the separating (haven't taken mine on any trips past a short walk down the pasture yet), that is what I thought I wrote. Not sure why your BS alarm was going off, but I'd appreciate knowing what I erroneously wrote (other than the separation issue I didn't know about or address).

    Ed

  12. #32
    Boolit Master The Double D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed in North Texas View Post
    Douglas,

    Except for the separating (haven't taken mine on any trips past a short walk down the pasture yet), that is what I thought I wrote. Not sure why your BS alarm was going off, but I'd appreciate knowing what I erroneously wrote (other than the separation issue I didn't know about or address).

    Ed



    Sorry, I should not have quoted you there. I think I meant to just say my ears are burning----like when people are talking about you when you walk in a room.

    I think I quoted with that one line of thought and got carried away emphasizing my point about CoW not burning.

    I have edited my post to remove the quote. My apologies.

    The comment about BS alarm refers to theme of this thread and the use of 50/50 CoW.

    Apologies to all.
    Last edited by The Double D; 06-29-2012 at 09:53 AM.
    Douglas, Ret.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master The Double D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beekeeper View Post
    Double D,
    If I may ask what type of foam and or fiberfill?
    Would you please elaborate!
    Have been using cotton as Norm Sutton recommended but am always looking for something better!

    Beekeeper
    Closed cell foam like that used in foam ear plugs. Kynoch uses it in their loaded ammunition and sells the foam in precut sizes for various calibers.


    It also is the type foam found as padding in many gun cases. Look for it in upholstery shops. Use a wad punch to cut.

    Cotton, Dacron, Sheeps wool or kapok also all work.

    I believe you must have consistency in loading and I like too weigh everything I put in a case. I have a large quantity of kapok and that is why I use it. I have used cotton and dacron.

    On a hot dry day, cotton will burn when fired, but it burns after it leaves the barrel-range officers get so testy when you start small grass fires on their range.

    A few months back I got in a long discussion here on this board about using a tuft of dacron. I contend you must measure the filler and I weigh each tuft of kapok that goes in my Martini-current practice 3 grains. The other fellow maintained weighing was unnecessary all you needed was tuft and you were good to go.

    Well a tuft is such a imprecise quantity and there is a real concern that too small amount will be used and the purpose of the filler not be met.

    As the discussion went on the other gentlemen stated again that he was opening the dacron batting and cutting the material into square "tufts". He was cutting them to a specific size and not weighing. Well duh on both of us.

    He was using a specific size tuft and not just some random tuft, and it was of sufficient volume to do the job. He was also measuring and using a specific and consistent quantity-volume.

    We were both doing the same thing, just different; he volume, me weight.

    The correct method is to be consistent.
    Douglas, Ret.

  14. #34
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    Beekeeper, I'll send you a lifetime supply of Kapok.

    Douglas is that the Kapok I sent you that you are working on. I keep giving it away and the original box it came in doesn't seem to get any emptier. The top closes a little easier though.

    BTW Kapok doesn't burn like the cotton balls.

    Bob
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  15. #35
    Boolit Master The Double D's Avatar
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    Yes, Bob, that is the same kapok. I am running low, I have perhaps enough left only for another 15 or 20 years.
    Douglas, Ret.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boz330 View Post
    Beekeeper, I'll send you a lifetime supply of Kapok.

    Douglas is that the Kapok I sent you that you are working on. I keep giving it away and the original box it came in doesn't seem to get any emptier. The top closes a little easier though.

    BTW Kapok doesn't burn like the cotton balls.

    Bob
    According to transportation/shipping information, kapok is even more combustible than cotton. In bales which break open it has been known to spontaneously combust. I don't know what treatment might be applied to fiber used in products to reduce the flammability (inflammability for those of us old enough to remember when things were inflammable).

    Ed

  17. #37
    Boolit Master The Double D's Avatar
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    Ed you want to share that source of transport info on Kapok. I am well aware that iti s combustible. Combustible just means it will burn.

    Spontaneous combustion in kapok, that is new on on me.

    Now instead of going to bed, I am gong to be sitting here on the internet doing research.

    Whew, that didn't take long. Here's what I found:

    http://www.tis-gdv.de/tis_e/ware/fasern/kapok/kapok.htm

    RF Self-heating / Spontaneous combustion

    Kapok is assigned to Class 4.1 of the IMDG Code (Flammable solids). However, its specific characteristics and negative external influences (see below) may cause it to behave like a substance from Class 4.2 (Substances liable to spontaneous combustion) of the IMDG Code or ADR.

    Its high cellulose content makes kapok particularly liable to catch fire through external ignition. Kapok fibers ignite even more readily than cotton. Therefore, protection from sparks, fire, naked lights and lit cigarettes must always be provided. Smoking is absolutely prohibited. Sparks may arise from bursting or chafing of the steel straps (and also as a result of inadequate cargo securing in the hold or container) and cause a cargo fire. In accordance with the IMDG Code, ventilation openings leading into the hold should be provided with spark-proof wire cloth.

    Spontaneous combustion may occur as a result of exposure to moisture, animal and vegetable fats/oils, oil-bearing seeds/fruits, copra and raw wool. As a result of the very well developed oxygen-rich lumen of the kapok fiber and the oxygen supply contained in the capillary cavity system, smoldering fires inside the bales often last for weeks.

    Kapok generally combusts very slowly and flamelessly. Once fire is well established in kapok bales, they burst open due to the intensity of the heat and burning kapok may then be scattered over other bales.

    Fire-fighting is best performed using CO2 or foam. It is very difficult to extinguish a fire because of the excess of oxygen in the kapok fiber, which maintains the fire from the inside. When fighting a fire, do not break the steel straps or open the bales, since relieving the compression increases the oxygen supply and makes it impossible to fight the fire effectively.

    Water must not be used for fire-fighting, since the swelling capacity of the kapok fibers may cause damage to the hold or container walls.


    I knew it was combustible, and have seen it burn. In may experience cotton burns easier. Spontaneous combustion requires a contamination by another material to occur.

    That is an interesting read. Thanks for making me look.

    Now I can go to bed.
    Douglas, Ret.

  18. #38
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    When shot the times I have used it, the only thing occurring was a snow storm of kapok in the air, never saw any sort of flame from use with either BP or smokeless. Considering it carries it's own oxygen supply it would seem to be not just flammable but almost explosive.
    BTW I have never gotten very good groups when using it.

    Bob
    GUNFIRE! The sound of Freedom!

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Double D View Post
    Ed you want to share that source of transport info on Kapok. I am well aware that iti s combustible. Combustible just means it will burn.

    Spontaneous combustion in kapok, that is new on on me.

    Now instead of going to bed, I am gong to be sitting here on the internet doing research.

    Whew, that didn't take long. Here's what I found:

    http://www.tis-gdv.de/tis_e/ware/fasern/kapok/kapok.htm

    snip

    That is an interesting read. Thanks for making me look.

    Now I can go to bed.
    You're welcome. That reference is what I came across also. Interesting that it doesn't tend to burn (when used as a case filler) as readily as cotton.

    Ed

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by singleshotman View Post
    While i do not own a martini henry i have plans on how to load for it.i have a advantage, i own an old but still good Lathe. my father used to make Lathe turned cases from Naval rolled brass,but that's a big job.I throught i'd make some brass inserts,tapered to match the 24ga Brass Shells, and straight on the inside.Crimp them below the bottleneck and they would never go anywhere unless the cases split.i'd use a 7/16" drill, so the case would be no more eighty grains of fG or so when full.Also since it would be a straight case on the inside you could compress the powder if neccessary. I think this would work.When the cases break, i'd remove the insert and keep it for another case.
    I would think you'd get a lot of gas blowing back along the sides of the case unless it expands to seal the chamber???

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check