75,000 Wadcutters in a Model 27

[tazman]

I recently did some experimenting with my 38 specials and wadcutters using wadcutter brass.
I aquired some R-P wadcutter brass in enough quantity to make it worthwhile from a couple of members on this forum(thank you gentlemen). I loaded them with either 3.2 grains of Bullseye or 3.3 of WST under a 358495 Lyman boolit. I already had some mixed brass loaded with the same boolit and powders. Next stop, the indoor range.
I used my Smith&Wesson Target Masterpiece with a 6 inch barrel as my test gun. The cylinder throats and the forcing cone/barrel are perfectly set up for cast boolits. I shot from a handheld rest on sandbags. I had 50 rounds each of mixed brass with Bullseye and WST, 50 rounds wadcutter brass with Bullseye, and 50 rounds of wadcutter brass with WST.
After firing 6-12 round test groups all afternoon at varying distances to 25 yards, I found that the wadcutter brass gave me noticeably better groups than the mixed brass did. The wadcutter brass groups were consistently about 25% smaller than the mixed brass groups. Sorry, I didn't save the targets.
It didn't matter which powder was used. Both powders gave the same group size with the respective types of brass.
Now all I need to do is test a couple of different wadcutter styles to see if there is any consistent improvement depending on style of boolit. I have several to choose from.

[GooseGestapo]

Not trying to "one up" the original poster, but back in the early-mid '90's I shot extensively competing in PPC. Shot about 60,000rds a year for several years. Managed a few wins at the NPSC, (not the over all, though ) and a few national records. Took high conservation officer 4 times. Still have a record I shot in off duty that still stands if they haven't dropped the category.

Being unsupported and broke, I heavily depended on cast bullets for practice. I only shot hollow base wad cutters at the 50yd line in "big matches"; regionals or nationals. Preferred Star before they went out of business then went to custom ordering unlubed hollow base wad cutters and semi wad cutters from Precision Delta. Couldn't afford "factory" ammo for the distinguished matches so shot "Mexican" match.. Precision Delta SWC, in Precision Delta head stamped brass. (Starline). However, I tumble lubed the bullets and hand sized them carefully handling them to avoid damage, and tumble polished the loaded ammo. Passed inspection every time. Wasn't "cheating" as many others did likewise, and I used same powder charges as PD did in order to get the same superior results (HP38/231). Even occasionally used PD new, on the occasion that I'd win some in a match. I even once saw a Dillon 1000 set up at the MHP range loading 9mm; PD brass, Hornady XTP's, and Winchester primers, being loaded into new PD boxes... Even the big boys had to pinch penny's. Rules now allow any safe ammo. Courtesy of the shortages of '08 and '12.

My casting started with Lyman and Lee moulds in the '70's. However I was gifted a Saeco 4-cav double ended wad cutter mold in the mid '80's. It was well worn and though I reconditioned it, it still throws oversized bullets, but still have it. Mostly I used Lee 6-cav. (Worn out 2, on my 3rd). I repaid the owner, a gunsmith, for the mold and building a M98 sporter with two 5gal buckets of 150gr DEWC. He supplied the lead. He loaded them for a local PD as he had a Dillon and Star auto loaders and class 6 FFL, required at the time to sell reloads.

I picked up a bazillion Remington wad cutter brass. Winchester tended to vary more, and is/was thicker than the Remington. (Several of the federal agency teams got Remington on contract, and either gave me their brass or left it on the ground.. Ahhh, the good old days!). I still have several thousand rounds in 5gal buckets. (No, it AINT for sale!). Neither the several tons of wheel weights, scrap, and 200lbs of Linotype.

I prefer the K-frames, though my best record was with a 2.5" 686. I had a mod28 in college but "shot" it loose, with .357 cast SWC over heavy loads of #2400. I traded it for a Mod 19 that I carried for several years working for a PD. However, fianances dictated I traded it for something else I needed. My first PPC revolver was a heavily used Travis Strayhan build on a model 10 with a Mascot rib sight. Had it rebarreled twice, barrel set back and forcing cone recut several times. Twice because I bulged it shooting out squibs to avoid wasting $100 entry fee. Got away with it several times, too. First 1490, with a 240-12x match 3 was after I shot out a squib at the 7yd line in match 1! Btw. I was using 2.7gr Bullseye and cast for "short lines" and hbwc over 2.9gr of #231. Sorry, but I get slightly better accuracy from a slightly heavier charge of 231/HP38.
My current and probably last PPC revolver is a Model 10-6 I won at '96 NPSC. I by then had acquired the basic equipment and skill to install a Barnett pre-machined barrel and installed an Aristocrat rib. I shot several 1490's to include a 1493 in the '98 NPSC. shot a 240-14 in match 3, winning that match. "MONKEY" got on my back big time, dropped 6pts in match 4!. Shot a 599 in match 5 to finish with a 1493. Since '97when I built that gun, I've probably shot over 300,000rds through it, and it's on its third barrel. I've corrected it for end-shake a couple of times and when I do, it goes back to ~1.5" at 50yds with swaged hbwc, and closer to 2" with cast. I haven't bought-shot hbwc in over 10yrs. My Lee 148 DEWC sized to .358" in the Rem cases will do better than I can, now. I inherited 48lbs of Bullseye in '04, and it took me till '14 to shoot it up. I recently went back to #231 as 50yd testing indicated it still prefers 231.
My point is, it takes copious quantities of ammo to get "good". Only cast bullets and a truly great powder as efficient as Bullseye can deliver that economically.

Hard to beat Bullseye, however!!! Never could warm up to TiteGroup, WST, or Acc.#2, or any of the others to come along. RedDot, GreenDot, Unique, Herco, too course to be uniform from auto powder measures in pistol quantities.

Btw, I was in the gallery when Jerry Mickelet shot the 10-gun, 60 shot record that was taped at the 2004 NPSC. His load? You guessed! 148gr DEWC over 2.7gr BE. He said he loaded them hisself, on a Dillon press. He was using essentially box-stock Model 10's. He prefers heavy rebound springs just like Ed McGivern. Pushes his trigger finger back for faster recovery.
Now, you know the REST of the story!

[Four Fingers of Death]

That's a lot of lead downrange Goose! Great read. thanks.

[alamogunr]

Now I know why I will never be a great pistol shot. Started too late and probably wouldn't have done what was required if I had started in my teens.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Whether or not you end up as a star, it's all good fun with fine guns and roll your own ammo, very satisfying.

[Matt_G]

Thanks for posting that Goose.
I enjoyed reading it.
Great addendum to a great thread.

BTW, how long did it take you to cast 2 bucket fulls of DEWC's?
Holy smokes that's a lot of boolits...

[GooseGestapo]

Re: 2 buckets; about 220lbs; about 1hr per 20lbs in RCBS bottom pour pot (borrowed from gunsmith). Took 6 casting sessions over 3week period. Using two, Saeco four cavity molds. Still have one. I used Star lubrisizer at gs shop to size/lube. GS loaded them w/Dillon 1050 and sold to a couple of local PD's. After he got a job promotion with his day job (AL Marine Police, relocated 200miles away) I took over his ammo business obtaining a class6 ffl.

During peak shooting years, I'd spend 2-3hrs at a time, 2-3 times a week casting in a 10-14 utility building behind my house, dedicated to casting, loading, ect. By that time, I had/have two Lee Pro 4 casting pots, and a 10lb Production pot (small batches like hard rifle alloy). Not to mention the 100lb cap smelting pot I use on a fish cooker to melt w/w's and other scrap into ingots (I have 4 cast iron corn bread trays, makes ~1.5lb ingot 8-each). In late '80's to early mid-90's, I had class 1 and class 6 FFL. Relinquished them when fee went from $60 for three years to $500yr. Six months later, fee dropped back after lawsuit by firearms retailers assoc. McClure-Volkmer bill in '84 allowed interstate sales of reloading components by common carrier (UPS, FedEx) which allowed folks like MidwayUSA, GRAFS, ect to sell ship components. I never got ffl again. Used proceeds from commercial activity to fund my shooting...

[LAH]

Every time I roll by this thread it makes me smile.

[M-Tecs]

I refer this thread to the folks that claim they shot the barrel out on their 22 RF in 2,000 or 3,000 rounds.

[Patricklaw]

Well thanks for catching my attention. This is a great thread.

[220]

I refer this thread to the folks that claim they shot the barrel out on their 22 RF in 2,000 or 3,000 rounds.

Knew an old timer who shot out the barrel on his 22lr rifle, his estimate was somewhere around 250k rounds.
My 686 is some where past 50k target loads, I think its just starting to break in.

[Outpost75]

Rimfire barrels shoot out because ground glass is used to produce necessary friction within the primer mix to produce ignition upon impact. Glass isn't needed in centerfire primers because they contain an anvil.

Many years ago I was an active smallbore competitive shooter and shot with the likes of George Stidworthy, Lones Wigger, Pres Kendall, Maurice Kaiser and Mark Humphreville.

In the typical smallbore rifle match barrel a "frosty" spot begins to develop at the 6:00 position forward of the chamber at the origin of rifling starting at about 20,000 rounds. At the beginning this will not be apparent to the naked eye, but can be seen readily with an optical borescope. As firing continues the frosty spot widens and continues up the sides, until it eventually meets at the top, forming a ring. How soon this occurs depends upon the hardness of the barrel steel, the method of cleaning, and the flame temperature of powders used.

Most experienced smallbore shooters clean by simply pushing one wet patch through the bore to wet the fouling, keep it soft, and to push out any abrasive primer combustion products remaining in the bore. Before firing again, another wet patch is pushed through the bore to remove the residual soft fouling, then one or two dry patches. There is no reason to brush a .22 match barrel which is not leading.

If the barrel IS leading, it is because the erosion ring ahead of the chamber has progressed to the point where it affects accuracy. The point at which a barrel is set back and rechambered is not determined by the number of rounds, but upon grouping. If a prone rifle will no longer shoot shoot X-ring, ten-shot, 100-yard groups with scope using Eley Tenex or other ammunition of equal quality, it is time to rechamber, usually after 100,000 rounds, but a "hard" barrel, properly cleaned and maintained, and used with "cool" ammunition will last several times that. A 50-meter position rifle will maintain competitive accuracy for a longer time than a prone rifle. A soft stainless barrel is more prone to galling or cleaning rod damage and will go sour before a harder chrome-moly barrel.

In fitting .22 match barrels the barrel shank must be a "ring fit" in the receiver, capable of hand assembly when coated with a thin film of oil or anti-seize only. An interference fit will collapse the chamber, producing a "choke" which destroys accuracy. A barrel shank 0.0010" to 0.0015" smaller in diameter than the receiver hole is correct, coated with anti-seize compound, pressed and pinned in. Some 'smiths use service-removable locktite 242 on semi-auto rifles, like the Ruger 10/.22, but this is not necessary if the barrel is fitted properly. The breech face of semi-auto match pistols should be induction quench-hardened to prevent peening after being chambered.

[LAH]

Thanks Outpost.

[Frank V]

Came in late, but this is a great thread. I shot PPC in the 70s had a ball, won a few nothing major, but lots of fun.
My favorite gun became a S&W mod. 14. Started with a mod 19, but found the chambers on the mod 14 were unchamphered & therefor loaded wadcutters more smoothly.

[jeepyj]

This was one of the first threads I read when I first joined the forum and probably still one of my favorites.
Jeepyj

[Frank V]

I'm staying tuned, thanks for the info in target .22s Outpost75!

[flyin brian]

Amazing. It seems I have a LONG ways to go!!

Thanks for sharing your story.

[Frank V]

Amazing. It seems I have a LONG ways to go!!

Thanks for sharing your story.

Not so long to go, just keep shooting those wadcutters.
Wadcutters will do a lot of what needs doing with the .38 Special.
I've shot them out too 100yds & a bit farther, they were still accurate but I'll bet velocity was falling off drastically.
They are loads of fun & very accurate.

[happie2shoot]

Now I know why I will never be a great pistol shot. Started too late and probably wouldn't have done what was required if I had started in my teens.

Many people can become a great shooter very fast if they get started right.

The first thing is get the proper training before you learn bad habits.

I shot on a pistol team in the army forty years ago, the ones that listened to
the teachers in class usually shot the best and learn much quicker.

I did not listen as good as I should have but did learn later what it takes,
we shot NRA Bullseye, Leg matches and the CG matches.

I did get a first in the division once with the 1911.

http://competitions.nra.org/how-to-g...mpetition.aspx

Everybody is different and some will never be above average and some
will get very good very fast.


My shooting instructor told us that we are better off just shooting ten good shot
a day, applying all the fundamentals than 100 bad shots.

One thing that really helps is dry firing at a white wall in your house with nothing on it,
NO TARGET, just focus on the front sight, sight alignment, and trigger pull and watch
for sight movement when the trigger breaks. If the front sight moves in the rear
notch you need much more practice. If you learn this before you ever fire a shot you
will get good fast.

Oh yea, the shot needs to be a surprise, slow and constant trigger pull helps.

Remember some will never get very good, like me and this computer.

I did not read the whole thread so forgive me if this has been said.


Also there are ways to easily fix a shot out barrel on a 22lr, many you don't even
need to take off the barrel, I have done around eight hundred of them, did not
test all of them but some would do 1\2'' at fifty yards five shot groups.

I had a manufacturing license years ago.

[Frank V]

Coming back to this thread, one of my favorite loads is a good 148gr WC over 2-1/2grs of Bullseye. It's a light load but very accurate, & easy on the gun & shooter. I've taken a LOT of small game with this load & keep coming back to it. I'm really enjoying this thread too & will keep coming back to read the adventures of others.
Good shooting everyone.