.690 Ball in 12g

[NZSarge]

Dumb question time:

I have quickly searched/scanned the discussion re: Slug v Single Round Ball in 12g.
This for range/informal target at up to 50yards.

A .690 ball weighs in at approx. 1 oz pure lead compared to 7/8/1oz for the lee slug.

Are these round balls just as accurate with a light trap load of powder e.g 15g 700x or 20g WST or Greendot, as the slug. Used in a standard wad with 8 star crimp

There is so much debate and opinion on this and I only want to buy the one mold.
Any real world experience or comment is appreciated.

I know this has been thrashed out a few times so I hope I haven't really embarrassed myself here, but the topic facinates me for some reason..

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Good morning NzSarge, first of all no question is a dumb question.
The .690 round ball in wad is a very tight fit in some guns. It would be far better to buy a .678" round ball for that, once you cast a few you will need to put them in each type of wad and try pushing it through your barrel with a wooden dowel to find the right wad/round ball combo
fit for your gun. For accuracy you need a snug fit combo that requires 8 to 10 lbs pressure to push it trouugh, then use that combo, this way your load will give you good accuracy and will be deadly for hunting deer from a smooth bore, also do remember the RB has a tendency to spread muscle, rather than cut, so you need to aim for heavy bones as the RB is known to plow through like a bull dowser.
The Lee slug in wad is mainly good for rifled barrel but from a smooth bore its ok, the Lee slug is more like a bumble bee, the good thing is the mold is cheap from Midsouth.

like in the picture both will tear

The Lyman 525 slug in wad is a great slug very accurate and cost more, cuts a clean hole.
Use Imp Cyl choke for the above!
Hope it helps.
Ajay
Video Memories
VdoMemorie's-Blazing Sabots
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[longbow]

I have had very poor results with 0.690" ball mainly due to wad fit. I have only found one wad so far that gives reasonable fit with in my smoothbores and even then I got poor accuracy.

I am with Ajay and the 0.678" ball. It seems that about 0.675" to 0.685" fits many readily available standard wads.

I have had good success with both 0.735" RB's and with 0.662" RB's "shimmed to fit a shotcup using paper tube or cloth patching to take up slop and keep the ball centered. With either, I can count on 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards from smoothbore which is better than most slugs I have tried.

So, the short story is that round balls can be made to shoot quite well from smoothbores at least to 50 yards. Getting a good ball/wad combination is the trick and I think 0.690" is a hair big for most wads.

Another thing you need is a good solid support under the ball so the wad doesn't extrude itself around the ball. I usually use two 1/8" 16 ga. or 20 ga. nitro card wads under the ball inside the shotcup and a scoop of cornmeal or COW between ball and card wads.

If you keep ball weight the same as typical shot loads you can use equivalent weight shot loads which makes loading much easier so anything from 1 oz. to 1 3/8 oz. in 12 ga. is good. Also, most slugs are in the 1 oz. to 1 1/4 oz. range so those recipes can be used too.

- 0.662" RB weighs 427.5 grs. (1 oz.) in pure lead and 421 in wheelweights
- 0.678" RB weighs 452 grs. in wheelweights
- 0.690" RB weighs 477 grs. in wheelweights
- 0.735" RB weighs 576 grs. in wheelweights

All are readily available moulds.

Longbow

[diehard]

I've had good luck with the .690" and a smoothbore and many different loads, and GREAT luck with the .690 RB and a rifled barrel using the following recipes (USE AT OWN RISK):

.690” RB, FedTopGun hull, Fed209A, 26.0 grain Universal, Fed 12S3 w/ cushion cut out(use the cup and the seal only)+1/2” fiber wad + ¼” felt inside cup, fold crimp

.690” RB,Nobelsport hull, Fio616, 25.0 gr Unique, x12x+WT12 w/ petals trimmed ½, hull not trimmed, roll crimped with no OS card

Both loads will group within 2" at 50 yards all day long.


BTW....the .690 RB is closer to 1 1/8th oz with alloys I've used. I use 1 1/8th oz loads when experimenting.

[longbow]

Which wad do you use with your smoothbore?

Have you checked accuracy from the rifled gun to 100 yards?

BPI lists a load with 0.690" ball in their wad too so that must fit well but again, I haven't tried those wads. Maybe I should order some.

I hear the Federal wads are tough, have thin petals and are quite good. I haven't tried those as I live in a reloading desert (almost). We do have one little gunshop now but limited selection. I used to shop in the States which is a short drive but Homeland Security and ATF put an end to foreigners buying reloading supplies in the States.

Mostly now it is use what I can find or order in.

I did have some thinner petal wads that I can't remember the make of that fit not bad with the 0.690" ball but accuracy still wasn't there for me.

As long as you can get good fit and keep the ball centered it should do fine.

I like the idea of 0.690" ball and rifled gun. I was leaning towards full bore balls and slugs but have found it more convenient to use cushion leg wads so sub bore slugs and balls that fit readily available wads are on my menu now. One day I may get a rifled barrel or new rifled gun but for now I use my smoothbores.

Longbow

[Nobade]

I do it differently. I cut the petals off a AA wad, and load a cloth patched .715" round ball in 12 ga. hulls for my cylinder bore 870. I use the same ball and patch in my 12 bore muzzle loader, so I thought "why not?" It works extremely well, very accurate and with a stiff charge of Blue Dot is about as powerful as I can stand to shoot. It should work even better in a rifled barrel.

[crazy mark]

I have very good results with a patched .690 RB in my double barrel black powder shotgun. Very accurate up to about 50 yds. I use the same amount of powder as if I was using 1 oz of shot. No wads used either.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Longbow, the .690 RB in

Win 12F114 measures .731 to .733" the
Fed 12C-1 another thin petal wad measures .737 to .739", the 2nd on the left in picture,
Fed 12S-3 purple are .735 to .736" 1st on the left in picture,
now my Savage F-210 rifled barrel was .732" a bit over bored and so is my new Savage 212
therefore I'll try shooting the Win 12F114 & Fed 12S-3 with .690RB at the range!
My Remington 1100Magnum has a Ithaca rifled barrel but its not over bored!
What all RB molds do you have? I have .678", .690" and .732"
on the list to buy are .578" and .662"
Ajay
Video Memories
VdoMemorie's-Blazing Sabots
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[NZSarge]

I have the Lee .690 on order, because it is affordable in NZ,

Thank you all for the replies by the way, appreciated.

[longbow]

Ajay:

I have 0.662", 0.690", 0.715" and 0.735" all Lyman moulds.

I have had best results with the two extremes ~ 0.662" patched to snug fit in a shotcup and 0.735" over hard card wad column.

I have tried the 0.690" with several wads but all a bit tight so petals tend to shear or at least distort.

I had planned on bore size as it seemed to me to make the most sense but actually, after loading several hundred slugs, I have to say that being able to use a readily available plastic cushion leg wad appeals to me and I have even gotten better accuracy from slug (not ball) loads using shotcups as well.

Most of my shooting has been with smoothbore. I did shoot some 0.735" balls from a rifled gun a friend has and they shot very well. The 0.735's also do well from my smoothbore to at least 50 yards generally giving 3" to 4" groups.

I do like the round balls and I think a good load with round ball in a shotcup is great! The 0.678" is next on my list but so far the 0.662" has done pretty well for me ~ just a little more work to load.

A benefit of the undersize ball is that it is more choke friendly... just in case it finds its way into a choked barrel.

I will have to try Nobade's idea of patching a 0.690" ball. I would have thought the patch would get lost or at least out of place in the jump to the forcing cone but maybe the wad force and some blowby keep it in place until it is into the barrel. Once squished between ball and barrel, no different than a muzzleloader, I just never thought it would make it that far so haven't tried that one.

Another option I haven't tried yet is the donut wad. The hole in the middle of the wad is supposed to keep the ball centered down the bore. If that works then 0.690" is an optimum size that will almost fill the bore yet should fit through anything but a really tight full choke.

I haven't managed to get out shooting for a while and I have several slug and ball loads to test so have to get to it!

NZSarge: You may have to do some experimenting but if you keep the ball centered down the bore it should give good accuracy to 50 yards or more. Like I said, I can count on 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards with good round ball loads from my smoothbores. RB's are quick and easy to cast too which is nice. Enjoy!

Longbow

[diehard]

Longbow, I've tried many wads through smoothbore barrels. The Federal 12S3 has been the most consistent performer, but maybe only because I've used it most. Cutting the wad petals for a smoothbore load doesn't seem to make any difference for me, so generally I put enough fiber wad under the ball so that it comes just above the top of the wad petal.

I have a few+ smoothbore shotguns, and no single loading seems to be universally good for all of them. Barrel fit is probably the reason. Nobade's patched ball is probably the best way around that problem if you have a tough time finding the right components.

I have not tried my RB's at 100 yards. I live in the east, where 100 yards shots at a deer are not common (at least where and how I hunt), so my demands for accuracy are less stringent. Besides, the 50 yard range at the club is far less crowded. I may put 100 yard testing on my "to do" list this summer, though.

[longbow]

Diehard:

I should see if I can order some Federal wads. Several people have said they are good wads for slugs and balls.

So far I have found that if the ball/wad is stiff to push through the barrel I tend to get petal damage. If the fit is a little looser than I think it should be it seems to work pretty well. The 0.662" RB loads are almost an easy sliding fit but shoot very well.

What I should do is take out a selection of guns and check each for accuracy and collect wads to check condition. Makes me wonder if polishing forcing cones might help with tighter fit wads.

I know my BPS slug barrel is very smooth but it has I/C coke so I avoid bore size balls and slugs in that one. The choke is also a little tight for any shotcups I have tried in it with 0.690" ball ~ petals shear or at least get squished. Mostly I shoot my single shot which has a shiny bore but I haven't checked the forcing cone.

Hmmmm...

Longbow

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello LongBow, if you PM me your address, you'll find some beautiful colored wads in the mail.
Guess what, it would be my pleasure!
Ajay
Video Memories
VdoMemorie's-Blazing Sabots
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[longbow]

Ajay:

That is very kind of you. I appreciate your generosity.

PM will be on its way shortly.

Thanks,
Longbow

[NZSarge]

If the Lee slug is .624 diameter and .615 height, and fits nicely in a wad ( whichever wad) with a nitro card and is semi accurate for some,

..wouldn't a .624 ball be a better proposition to fit in the same wad, ?

Update, The above dimensions are from the lee website for their slug.
I read that most people are measuring .670 and more once cast. Hence my confusion. I wonder why the huge discrepancy?

[msrdiver]

Both of these loads were tested by Tom Armbrust at Ballistics Research.

***Trim the wad petals to just behind mid point of the round ball (RB).***

Hull: Federal target hull with paper base wad
Primer: Fiochhi 616
Powder: 800X, 28.19 grains
Wad:Federal 12S3, trim petals
Round Ball: 690, mine weigh 492grains
Overshot card: one 20 gauge atop RB
1/8" felt: insert into 12S3 wad before inserting RB

I first trim the wad petals. I then insert the 1/8" felt into the 12S3 wad and then seat that in the hull. I then insert the RB. Then the 20 gauge overshot card goes on top of the round ball otherwise the crimps inverts. Then the usual 8 point crimp.





1341fps 7800psi


Same story above but...

powder: 29.7 grains of Longshot

1235fps, 4266psi

[dnotarianni]

I'm late to the party but I use a 662 ball in a 3/4 oz wad with a cardboard disc over the ball to get good crimp with 18gr of red dot in a gun club hull

Dave

[TRG3]

While I got 3" groups at 50 yards out of my 12 gauge USH with both the one ounce Lee Key Drive slug and 525 grain Lyman sabot and took deer with these, I managed to get around 1" groups with the .690 round ball with the following load:

Fiocchi 2 3/4" new hull
27.0 gr. Herco
Over powder thin card
Federal S3 wad with .125 20-gauge hard card for round ball to rest on
Pure lead .690 roundball rolled on steel plate to minimize sprue, then loaded
"spure up"
Roll crimp

The recoil of this load is mild and I took two does with this load last season and will be using it again this year. Of course, YMMV.

[longbow]

Good to know that the 0.690" can do well from a rifled barrel.

I have only shot them from smoothbore and so far rather unsuccessfully but it seems wad/ball fit are the key. I need thinner petal wads.

I have been leaning towards the 0.678" RB as it is about a perfect fit for the shotcups I find commonly but would likely be a bit to loose for rifled barrel.

Did you recover any wads? I would be interested to see the petal condition.

I think Next time around I will see if I can find or order some Federal wads. They seem to do the job.

Longbow

[TRG3]

While some of the petals were crinkled with the roundball load, very few were lost. My experience with both the Lee and Lyman slugs resulted in about half of the petals being gone. I used both Federal S4 and S3 wads with the Lee and Lyman loads and up to 34 grains of Herco compared to the 27 grains of Herco with the roundball. Other than that, roundball/Lee/Lyman were loaded the same. The extra powder load could account for the difference in petal performance. I might add that I also shoot traditional muzzleloaders, including smoothbores. I've found that a patched roundball with almost any type of wadding between it and the black powder will give a much better performance, at least in my smoothbores. At 30+ yards, my 20 gauge flintlock smoothbore will cut a cloverleaf with patched roundballs loaded as described and has taken deer out to 60 yards. Based on this, the gentleman loading patched roundball in his shotgun hulls just might be on to something.