44 Mag accuracy/leading issues...

[Char-Gar]

1. Use 20/2400
2. Loose the Lee snot and use a good proven lube
3. Shoot those bullets air cooled

[Forrest r]

Lots of great advice here & lots of different things to look at/try.

Personally I’d lose the H110 & start out with something mild and work the loads up while checking for leading. I usually do this when I start to reload for a newly acquired firearm. It allows me to work on the:

Boolit fit
Boolit hardness
Boolit lube & speed

The problem I’ve found with H110 is that it’s very unforgiving & will bring out any weaknesses/problem in your reloads.

Good luck & please keep us in the loop

[44man]

Seems like a .4295 bullet going through a .4295 bore ( give or take a .0005 )
Sounds like leading to me, unless all the info about 1 or 2 thou. over bore is wrong.
Seems like he should open the throats a little, like to .431 wouldn't that allow for .0015 over bore, providing the measurements are correct.
Please correct me on this. But it seems so obvious.
Perhaps the throats are in fact .431 without opening them, and just a .431 bullet may help. As for the lube ? well one thing at a time.

.430" should be fine. I shoot most of my boolits at .430" from a .430" groove and .4324" throats, no leading and top accuracy. I admit to liking the RD at .432" but it is a good boolit design that is more important.
Groove size boolits still obturate. (Seal, not expand.)
I really think it is not necessary to go over groove and group testing for years has born this out. It does not hurt to go over but the boolit should not be over throat size.
Rifling is deep enough and bores are the right size in revolvers, unlike a Marlin that needs a larger boolit.
A large boolit with small GG's can have the grooves mashed out before all the lube can be put to use.
I also found one big GG is not as good as two or three. I have not figured out if it is boolit balance or increased rub area in the bore.
I have found no difference between flat bottom or round bottom grooves either, a boolit does not have to slump to provide lube.
Gas does not want to be used to force lube, lube does not seal gas and no gas should ever go past the base of a boolit.
Think of a boolit like a hydraulic piston. Lube keeps the seal from wearing but fluid pressure works only on the seal, expanding it. A boolit is a seal without expanding but the principal is the same. Keep gas or fluid behind the seal.
Even a Minie' ball does not work right unless you have fit to the bore and never depend on skirt expansion alone.
I don't know for sure but burning lube in the bore leaves ash. Boolits tend to run it over, eroding lead. Any leading in the bore will be run over, stripping more lead from boolits. It is better to have a wet lube coating and I see a difference with my first shot after the gun has sat for a long time, the lube in the bore dries out so the first shot will be off a little. Carbon from powder sucks up lube.

[gray wolf]

Well OK, great read--
That puts things in a better perspective, and easy to understand.
It takes time to type all that and some thinking also.
I appreciate your answer.

[TCLouis]

23.5 grains of H110 and start with a thoroughly cleaned barrel.

50 - 100 strokes with Turtle Wax Rubbing compound on a tight patch

[454PB]

The reason I recommended a .431" boolit is that the original post stated that a .430" boolit was easily pushed through the cylinder throats. That suggests to me that the throats are actually .431". The way to verify that is to "slug" the throats with a soft lead slug of over .432", or use pin gauges to get a more accurate measurement.

[44man]

The reason I recommended a .431" boolit is that the original post stated that a .430" boolit was easily pushed through the cylinder throats. That suggests to me that the throats are actually .431". The way to verify that is to "slug" the throats with a soft lead slug of over .432", or use pin gauges to get a more accurate measurement.

Not really that important. Really, you do not need a force fit to throats. Seal the bore and you are home free.

[Char-Gar]

Not really that important. Really, you do not need a force fit to throats. Seal the bore and you are home free.

Amen on this one! Way to much is made over an exact fit to the cylinder throats.

[runfiverun]

.430" should be fine. I shoot most of my boolits at .430" from a .430" groove and .4324" throats, no leading and top accuracy. I admit to liking the RD at .432" but it is a good boolit design that is more important.
Groove size boolits still obturate. (Seal, not expand.)
I really think it is not necessary to go over groove and group testing for years has born this out. It does not hurt to go over but the boolit should not be over throat size.
Rifling is deep enough and bores are the right size in revolvers, unlike a Marlin that needs a larger boolit.
A large boolit with small GG's can have the grooves mashed out before all the lube can be put to use.
I also found one big GG is not as good as two or three. I have not figured out if it is boolit balance or increased rub area in the bore.
I have found no difference between flat bottom or round bottom grooves either, a boolit does not have to slump to provide lube.
Gas does not want to be used to force lube, lube does not seal gas and no gas should ever go past the base of a boolit.
Think of a boolit like a hydraulic piston. Lube keeps the seal from wearing but fluid pressure works only on the seal, expanding it. A boolit is a seal without expanding but the principal is the same. Keep gas or fluid behind the seal.
Even a Minie' ball does not work right unless you have fit to the bore and never depend on skirt expansion alone.
I don't know for sure but burning lube in the bore leaves ash. Boolits tend to run it over, eroding lead. Any leading in the bore will be run over, stripping more lead from boolits. It is better to have a wet lube coating and I see a difference with my first shot after the gun has sat for a long time, the lube in the bore dries out so the first shot will be off a little. Carbon from powder sucks up lube.

i want this post up here twice it's that good.
anybody coming to this thread really needs to read this post carefully. [in my opnion]

[geargnasher]

I agree, great post 44Man! How about copy-pasting it to Run's "something that may help" sticky, with a bold title line to the effect of "comments on revolver loading" or some such?

Gear

[243winxb]

Lyman boolits & tumble-lubed. Not enough lube.

[gray wolf]

I told you it was a good post,
I made a copy of it.

but it is a good boolit design that is more important.

OK don't leave us hanging, is the Lyman 429421 a good bullet ?
How about the 429667 ?

[runfiverun]

those are my two main 44 bullets.
i have a couple of other molds [to fill in gaps and to deal with problem guns] but those are the top two.
i can play with the alloy,or the load,and have got them to shoot [well] in every 44 i have ever had.

that's an excellent idea, gear.

[gray wolf]

runfiverun
I know you like those two bullets, You sent me some
and not only did they look great--they shot very well also.
I thank you again sir.

[MtGun44]

Try a real lube, NRA 50-50 or LBT soft blue. An additional .001 wouldn't hurt, either.
Harder than necessary, but won't actually hurt in most instances.

Bill

[ColColt]

I've had super good luck with the Accurate Molds boolit (43-260B) and BAC lube. Best groups to date in my M29-3 and no leading. Throats are .432" and that's where I size.

[Mal Paso]

I had a 629 with tight throats. A .430" 200g RNFP Special load that worked fine in a Ruger (.432" Throats) produced 12" groups with the 629 until I reamed the throats and the groups went under 4". I think in certain instances tight throats can hurt your performance.

I'm in the just push through the throats/.001-.002" over groove camp and Very happy with the results.


Would you believe SAAMI Spec. for 44 Mag throats is .4325"?

[44man]

I had a 629 with tight throats. A .430" 200g RNFP Special load that worked fine in a Ruger (.432" Throats) produced 12" groups with the 629 until I reamed the throats and the groups went under 4". I think in certain instances tight throats can hurt your performance.

I'm in the just push through the throats/.001-.002" over groove camp and Very happy with the results.


Would you believe SAAMI Spec. for 44 Mag throats is .4325"?

Sounds about right! My SBH has .4324" but has always shot great.
I sold my SRH to a friend long ago, one of the most accurate .44's I ever had. He uses my boolits and loads but I could not hit a thing at 100 yards the other day. He was loading the gun but I opened his box and seen mixed primers. Most were copper colored and the only ones I know like that are Rem LR. I asked but he would not tell me.
Later on the phone he admitted to the LR because he grabbed the wrong box. I don't know how he got them so flush with the case head. We could have had a round go off against the recoil shield.
They were a total disaster and the only time I hit anything was when I picked out the silver primers.
I would have never dropped the hammer on one had I known. I have to pay more attention to what he brings to shoot.

[Jech]

I told you it was a good post,
I made a copy of it.

OK don't leave us hanging, is the Lyman 429421 a good bullet ?
How about the 429667 ?

It's my understanding that the Lyman 429421 is the effective last word on boolits for the 44spl/mag. Keith knew what he was doing when he designed it.

[Mal Paso]

It's my understanding that the Lyman 429421 is the effective last word on boolits for the 44spl/mag. Keith knew what he was doing when he designed it.

In my opinion Miha's H&G 503 clone (MP432256 from MP Molds) is the last word on the 429421 design. It has the Full Forward Drive Band Elmer always talked about and Outstanding Accuracy. ( No slight to Tom and the one-off custom makers )

Edit: There is the Odd gun like my Anaconda where the forward drive band enters the cylinder throat. Could be a problem if the throats are tighter than the boolit and the cartridge won't chamber. That's the theory why Lyman changed the design. I reamed my cylinders .431" to accommodate the gorgeous but .430 groove and the forward band is just in the throats when loaded.