44 Mag accuracy/leading issues...

[Jech]

Howdy gents,

I picked up a brand new 7.5" Ruger Redhawk chambered in 44 magnum a few months ago and have run into some accuracy and leading issues in the latter 4-5" of the barrel. Hoping to tap into the expertise on the site and diagnose what my problem is.

Here are the details of the load...

- New Starline 44 magnum brass
- Lyman 429241 boolits
- .4295-.430"" sized via Lee push-through sizing die (mould casts ever so slightly undersized)
- alloy is WQ'd 50/50 clip-on WW and range lead that tests around 18-20BHN
- tumble-lubed *very* generously with 45/45/10
- COAL of 1.695" (strong roll crimp in the crimp groove)
- CCI #350 large pistol magnum primers
- 25.0gr of Hodgdon H-110
- Chronographs an average of 1,425fps from 10 shots

Details of the gun...

- New 7.5" Ruger Redhawk Hunter model
- The barrel slugs out at .4295"
- A .430" sized boolit will just barely get stuck when dropped through each chamber throat but can be pushed through with little effort...a .429" jacketed bullet will fall through with little resistance.
- Cylinder gap is .004" as measured by the local gunsmith

Accuracy is in the 4-6" range at 50 feet off of a benchrest with the cast loads I've tried so far. With factory jacketed ammo, I can put them in one ragged hole. Like I said above, with this H110 load, the first 2-3" of the barrel looks pretty clean but the latter 4-5" is just smeared so I suspect my load is to blame for the poor accuracy. I think I might be pushing the boolit too hard so I tried a 10gr charge of Unique with a Winchester non-magnum large pistol primer but that leaded the entire barrel too...forcing cone all the way to the end. I haven't chrono'd that load yet but according to Lyman's 4th Ed Cast Bullet handbook, I'm guessing it's in the 950-1,000fps range...slightly better but still poor accuracy.

Since the lower-velocity Unique load still leaded quite a bit like the H110 load did, my gut says it could be one of several things: I'm using 45/45/10 in a magnum cartridge with a non-TL style bullet, the bullet is undersized for the bore diameter and not sealing properly, or that I'm simply pushing a plain based boolit too hard and need a gas check (groan!)

What do you guys think it might be? Since the gun itself has good measurements in all the critical areas (bore dia, chamber throat dia, etc) I really don't think I'm dealing qith a gun quality issue.

Thanks! ~ Jech

[ShooterAZ]

Try some 2400 powder would be my suggestion, and perhaps a harder alloy would cast a bit larger. Less crimp also.

[500MAG]

I have the same gun and use H110 to load. The mold I use is Lee 429-240-swc. I tumble lube with LLA and size with the Lee sizer. I have very little leading. Undersized boolits can cause leading in the throat of the barrel.

[paul h]

Your gun might suffer from barrel thread choke. Push a soft lead ball from the muzzle and feel for a constriction as the bullet exits the breach. Blackhawks and super blackhawks are notorious for this, and it will cause all kinds of cast bullet grief.

Next, I like to clean a gun's barrel to squeky clean not a hint of jacket fouling when switching from jacketed bullets to cast. If there is jacket fouling in the barrel, you've layed down a foundation for the lead to follow.

My thoughts on your leading is two fold. With the H-110 loads, you were getting lube failure. go to a conventional lube. With the unique load, you have an undersize bullet that is too hard and not obturating to seal the bore. Don't water quench your bullets for milder loads.

I suggest thoroughly cleaning your barrel to remove both lead and jacketed fouling. Then cast up some more more bullets and don't water quench them. Use the liquid lube and try the 10 gr of unique again. I think your results will improve.

For the heavy loads, you need a conventional lube and honestly I don't think you need to water quench the bullets, especially if they are undersize.

If none of that helps, trip the lyman mold on ebay, and get a custom mold of a 250-270 gr LFN shape that drops 0.331" from ww's. I honestly think the LFN's are a superior design for top accuracy over a broader range of velocities.

[mdi]

The. 44 Magnum is my favorite caliber to reload, cast, and shoot. Bullet fit is key to clean, non-leading, accurate shooting, so I slugged all my revolvers' cylinder throats and size the bullets to the same diameter (My Ruger has .4305" to .431" throats, so I size my bullets to .431" which fits perfectly with the .429" groove diameter). I cast for mebbe 12 years before I "learned" about BHN. I had worked out all leading issues mainly with proper bullet fit before I checked the BHN of any of my alloys (95% of my casting was done with wheel weight alloy). IMO, the BHN formula is secondary to bullet fit for preventing leading.

I believe leading in the latter part of the barrel can be from lube failure. The lube "runs out" or fails before the bullet exits the barrel. Try another lube.

I cast a lot of Lyman 429421, some Lee 240 SWC T/L (for my Ruger SBH, S&W 629, T/C Contender, Dan Wesson 44H) and lately a lot of Ranch Dog 240 and 265 RFN T/L for my Puma .44.

[Jech]

Your gun might suffer from barrel thread choke. Push a soft lead ball from the muzzle and feel for a constriction as the bullet exits the breach. Blackhawks and super blackhawks are notorious for this, and it will cause all kinds of cast bullet grief.

Next, I like to clean a gun's barrel to squeky clean not a hint of jacket fouling when switching from jacketed bullets to cast. If there is jacket fouling in the barrel, you've layed down a foundation for the lead to follow.

The bore didn't have any pinch points when I slugged it...I lucked out with this one!

As for fouling, I've never put any factory/jacketed ammo through this gun. It was a cast-only revolver right out of the box

[454PB]

I suggest a slightly larger boolit diameter (.431") and pan lubing if you don't have access to a lubrisizer. I think you're running out of lube before you run out of barrel.

[turmech]

I load the same bullet sized the same as you (.430) with little to no leading in a SBH hunter. my measurements of the gun are the same as yours. I use 2400 and unique. your very unique load (10 gr) gives me the best accuracy. I size with the lee sizer as you but pan lube with conventional lube and straight WW water dropped. I would try conventional lube.

[44man]

Howdy gents,

I picked up a brand new 7.5" Ruger Redhawk chambered in 44 magnum a few months ago and have run into some accuracy and leading issues in the latter 4-5" of the barrel. Hoping to tap into the expertise on the site and diagnose what my problem is.

Here are the details of the load...

- New Starline 44 magnum brass
- Lyman 429241 boolits
- .4295-.430"" sized via Lee push-through sizing die (mould casts ever so slightly undersized)
- alloy is WQ'd 50/50 clip-on WW and range lead that tests around 18-20BHN
- tumble-lubed *very* generously with 45/45/10
- COAL of 1.695" (strong roll crimp in the crimp groove)
- CCI #350 large pistol magnum primers
- 25.0gr of Hodgdon H-110
- Chronographs an average of 1,425fps from 10 shots

Details of the gun...

- New 7.5" Ruger Redhawk Hunter model
- The barrel slugs out at .4295"
- A .430" sized boolit will just barely get stuck when dropped through each chamber throat but can be pushed through with little effort...a .429" jacketed bullet will fall through with little resistance.
- Cylinder gap is .004" as measured by the local gunsmith

Accuracy is in the 4-6" range at 50 feet off of a benchrest with the cast loads I've tried so far. With factory jacketed ammo, I can put them in one ragged hole. Like I said above, with this H110 load, the first 2-3" of the barrel looks pretty clean but the latter 4-5" is just smeared so I suspect my load is to blame for the poor accuracy. I think I might be pushing the boolit too hard so I tried a 10gr charge of Unique with a Winchester non-magnum large pistol primer but that leaded the entire barrel too...forcing cone all the way to the end. I haven't chrono'd that load yet but according to Lyman's 4th Ed Cast Bullet handbook, I'm guessing it's in the 950-1,000fps range...slightly better but still poor accuracy.

Since the lower-velocity Unique load still leaded quite a bit like the H110 load did, my gut says it could be one of several things: I'm using 45/45/10 in a magnum cartridge with a non-TL style bullet, the bullet is undersized for the bore diameter and not sealing properly, or that I'm simply pushing a plain based boolit too hard and need a gas check (groan!)

What do you guys think it might be? Since the gun itself has good measurements in all the critical areas (bore dia, chamber throat dia, etc) I really don't think I'm dealing qith a gun quality issue.

Thanks! ~ Jech

.430" should shoot! There is no sense going over throat.
I don't think anything in a .44 needs a GC if you just WD WW metal. Dump the range scrap, you have no idea what is in it.
The boolit is OK, maybe the best of the Semi wad cutters.
Take the H110 load down to 23 to 24 max, there is no need for as much velocity as you think you need. You are exceeding the accuracy point.
Dump the lube and make some Felix.
Use Fed 150 primers with H110. Mag primers triple groups. Many factory jacketed loads use standard primers and I know for sure Fed does.
I hate to say it but it sounds like you just went over max without working loads to see what the gun and boolit needs.
Even Unique does better from 7 to 8 gr.
New brass is not as accurate until shot a few times to even out case tension.
Dies used can ruin accuracy, get Hornady for the best accuracy.
REDUCE THE CRIMP! Only enough to hold boolits under recoil, you are ruining case tension.
And no, you do not have to test one thing at a time, go all the way.
The only thing that will need worked is the powder charge.
Step off the velocity rung, it will break.

[Jech]

Appreciate all the great advice here guys! I traded in a 357 snubby for this Redhawk because of how unimpressive it's velocity was once I got it onto a chrono so I guess I was a little over eager for the full power stuff.

As for the primers, Federal 150s aren't available in my area but I have seen large pistol primers from Winchester that claimed to be for both magnum or standard loads. I also noticed that CCI still distinguishes between magnum and standard. Would those WLP "hybrids" be a good replacement for Federal 150s?

[Lizard333]

All I shoot is WLP. They make it easy to reload. All I have to stock is one brand of large pistol primers for both magnum and regular.

I think your pushing that boolit to hard without a GC. I push the same boolit with a GC at 1450 FPS, sized to. 430, with no leading and very good accuracy.

My redhawk with a 7.5 inch barrel loves this boolit. Work up your load and go from there. You will find the sweet spot.

[knifemaker]

I am using a plain base boolit in both my 44 special & mag and in my 41 mag. both revolvers are Ruger Blackhawks and the 44 mag rifle is a Marlin 1894.

I size my bullets 1-2 thousand over the groove dia and I use 50/50 clip on wheel weight & pure lead as the alloy. My lube is white label 2500. Pushing these boolits to 1175 in the 44 special, 1400 in the 44 mag blackhawk, and 1700 in the rifle, 1350 in the 41 mag, has resulted in no leading after firing as many as 50 rounds at a sitting.

I always keep my boolits sized at least 1 thousand over groove dia, and 2 thousand and I believe that is the best policy to follow to prevent excessive leading in the average gun. When I started using the 50/50 alloy, I was worried about leading, but have found that I can drive bolits up to 1700 fps and not have any excessive leading. Once in awhile I might get one small spec of lead on the cleaning patch or brush. Using a tried and true lube is also very helpful.

[geargnasher]

First, listen to .44Man.

Personally, I've had bad luck with two lots of WLP in .44 Magnum. I switched to Federal standard LP and groups shrank considerably at 100 yards. I didn't chrono the WLPs to see what was going on, I just looked at the results and didn't ask questions. YMMV on this, just thought I'd throw it out there.

Also, range scrap has no tin in it. Pushing untinned antimonial alloys with a lot of pressure often produces "antimony wash" in my guns. This doesn't affect accuracy much, but sometimes it can in rifles. Adding 1% tin cures it if it's only an alloy problem.

Alox-based tumble lubes are for popguns. Take 44Man's advice and use it under your fenders instead of on your full-house, magnum handgun boolits. Felix lube is what you want for best accuracy, and getting rid of the tumble-lube will likely solve your leading issues if all else is balanced and dimensioned properly. Back that "full house" off a bit, too. Not too much, but as much as you safely can, then work around in .2-grain increments.

So, back off, use real lube, use a standard primer, add some tin, and lap your mould out about a thousandth.

Gear

[44man]

I never had WLP shoot as good either. Once they seemed to work in the .45 Colt but they did not follow through.
Try CCI 300's. They work fine.
Gear has a point that a little tin might fix the alloy.
White Label lube from Glen can save you a lot of trouble.

[popper]

I have trouble with my 40 leaving a bath-tub-ring in the last 1" of a 4" bbl. Thought maybe I was running out of lube til I miked them and found it @ .400 instead of the .401 it was supposed to be. I had changed to a softer alloy that sized small. I'm assuming it bumped up until the pressure dropped and then I got a burned lube dump. I say burned lube because melting the undersized, lubed ones coated the top of the melt with a crumbly black junk, kind of like alox (not using alox). It didn't burn off like oil or wax. I don't think we run out of lube, just blow it out or convert it to something else.

[44man]

That is what I always said about Alox. It makes stinky smoke so it must be burning. It is one of the few lubes that will lead my bores.

[fredj338]

Your rev sounds like it's setup right so I would look at the lube as the culprit, you are likely exceeding the lubes ability in your gun & that bullet. Late leading is often a lube issue not a fit issue. You could just have a rough bore as well. So a souple 100 jacketed, clean & then see if things haven't smoothed up a bit. BTWM while 10gr of Unique is not a high vel load, about 1050fps or so in a long bbl, it is a higher pressure load.

[Hang Fire]

I suggest a slightly larger boolit diameter (.431") and pan lubing if you don't have access to a lubrisizer. I think you're running out of lube before you run out of barrel.

Ditto, have found nothing leads a bore faster than undersized boolits when the gas gets around it cutting the boolit and leading is almost a sure result.

For a squeaky clean bore, get some "Chore Boy" pure brass scrub pads, unwind some and wrap around an old wire brush for tight fit to bore, will be surprised at the junk which comes out. Do not use the el cheapo brass plated steel scrub pads, they can often scratch the bore pretty bad.

[monge]

If your going to tumble lube at that speed I would use it straight and not cut it ,
let the boolits cool slowly and mild crimp you can hone the lee sizer out a 1/2 thou to .4305
I clean the nose of my boolits with a rag and WD to get the Alox off after seating. i have many 44s-44mags and have had good luckwith this method.alox does smoke and leaves a little junk in the barrel but nothing a patch and solvent will not clean.

[gray wolf]

.4295-.430"" sized bullets.
The barrel slugs out at .4295"
A .430" sized boolit will just barely get stuck when dropped through each chamber throat but can be pushed through with little effort...

Seems like a .4295 bullet going through a .4295 bore ( give or take a .0005 )
Sounds like leading to me, unless all the info about 1 or 2 thou. over bore is wrong.
Seems like he should open the throats a little, like to .431 wouldn't that allow for .0015 over bore, providing the measurements are correct.
Please correct me on this. But it seems so obvious.
Perhaps the throats are in fact .431 without opening them, and just a .431 bullet may help. As for the lube ? well one thing at a time.