I have a 454, reading now that 475 or 480 Ruger is "better"

[Sturmcrow]

I have both a 454 Casull revolver and levergun. I chose this cartridge based on the ability to go from mild to wild. I have actually been somewhat underwhelmed by the recoil, as I was expecting it to be severe, and that is kinda what I was looking for. Clearly, the revolver is not a rapid-fire self defense weapon, but I have no problem running a few cylinders through and imagine it would only get better with a glove to take some of the impact between middle finger and trigger guard. The perceived lever action recoil is not much greater than my 30-30 lever.

However, the true purpose of this post is to ask the basic question, "What am I missing in the discussion of 45 caliber vs. the 48 caliber revolver cartridges?"

The argument I have read is that the 480 Ruger is better because it shoots heavier bullets and has a larger diameter. A quick search shows 400gr cast traveling at 1200fps. What is the supposed hurdle keeping me from loading up a 454 round using a 400gr bullet at that velocity?

Handloads.com shows a 454 load of 395gr at 1300fps that is also at least 28% lower than max pressure at 43,000 CUP.

Don't even get me started on the "bigger is better" idea behind the above statement about the 480 being superior to the 454. The difference in diameter is barely 5%, and frontal surface area is barely 10% different. If that is enough to make a difference, then the 22% frontal area increase of the 50 caliber revolvers must truly be the best answer, and heck, why stop there!

The mitigating factor I have read is that the 480 has less recoil for similar performance. I cannot help but think that that 43,000 CUP load I mentioned above could not be too bad compared to some of the 60,000 PSI loads I have fired already. I should mention that my revolver has a 9.5" barrel, which must help some, but even my little sister (160 lbs or so) had no problem with my full-bore 300gr lil' gun loads.

[Love Life]

Great story.

[tek4260]

Great story.

+1

[454PB]

I've been shooting the .454 for 21 years now. I own 3 revolvers and a Puma rifle.

While I can't imagine needing more power or recoil, you might be a candidate for owning either a .460 or 500 S&W magnum.

[subsonic]

Just get them all. They're all fun!

Decide for yourself what you like to spend your money on.

[Sturmcrow]

Actually, I considered the 480 Puma, but as long as it took me to find one in 454 at a reasonable price, I had no hope of getting one in 480 in the near future.

I realized as I was typing the OP that this is mostly a question of semantics. The manufacturers always want us to get the next best thing, and many of us buy into their marketing, but it bothers me to read that one cartridge is better than another when the math does not seem to add up.

I guess a better question would have been, "Any problem with jamming a 395gr bullet into a 454 Casull case?" I know a lot of folks stop at 360gr, but is there a good reason why?

The reasons I ask this question here is that there are a lot of factors that go into bullet design that I am not 100% familiar with. I just know that if there is a problem with center of gravity or twist rate with such a heavy bullet, someone will let me know.

[subsonic]

They sell them that heavy in the right size.... At some point, velocity or stability will not be what you want.

Try it? I think Hodgdon also shows load data for 395gr.

I think it will depend on twist and velocity acheivable.

Why do you want a load like that? What purpose does it serve for you? Is it worth even messing with?

[2 dogs]

I believe you can kill anything that walks crawls or flies with a 454. I have shot lots of full on 454 as well as the 475 and 500 Linebaugh. They can all get pretty sporty too. Its all about what you like.

[475/480]

No question the 475 and 480 are better

Sean

[LUCKYDAWG13]

i have a Encore 454 with a 13" barrel love it does all i need with a 300gr cast boolit

[Jack Stanley]

The Casull round will do everything you want it to do , how can there possibly be anything better to do the job you are getting done ? If it didn't do the job , then you would have room for questions of what's better .

I've used the puny forty-four magnum quite a bit and never found it lacking . I even got a chance to fire the Casull round . I do believe it would do better on anything living on this continent better than my puny forty-four

Jack

[44man]

I am called crazy as a loon so forgive me!
I will forever insist that 1300 to 1400 fps range is the best for a hard flat nose boolit for hunting, anywhere else and the boolit needs some expansion and since my best shooting is with a harder boolit I have no need for more speed.
I feel the .454 is a step up from the Colt because a decent boolit can be shot faster and at say, 1350 fps, it will do anything and outstrips the .44 and the Colt. If you want to go full pressure and velocity, it really does better with a good bullet.
The problem comes in because the .454 has a slower twist and too heavy a boolit needs shot fast so you will need some expansion unless you find accuracy below 1400 fps. Most cylinders are short so a bullet needs seated deep once weight gets too high.
Even a .44 with a lighter boolit shot too fast is not as good as a heavier one at 1350 and the caliber has a weight limit. The Colt with a heavy boolit is kind of slow, kills OK but recovery is slower on deer, it has a velocity limit.
I would stay with 335 to 350 gr in the .454. In the end, there is nothing it can't do as long as you tailor the boolit/bullet for the velocity and animals hunted.
Boolit weight is not the final answer and it is not weight alone in the larger calibers. It has a lot to do with boolit length for a given weight and stability. Going to a very long boolit in a smaller caliber presents stability problems, like the 405 gr in the .44 or the crazy 700 gr in the .500, they don't work! Shoot only what is accurate.
BUT, the .475 and .500 JRH, both with the right boolit at the same velocity of around 1350 fps with a hard cast, are stunning on game, shock to them needs to be seen.
Go larger like a .460 or .500 S&W and you just open another can of worms, they are overboard.
Nothing on earth can withstand a .454 if you shoot it as intended and choose your bullet.

[TCTex]

Nothing on earth can withstand a .454 if you shoot it as intended and choose your bullet.

And it has been proven time and time again!!!

I think the main difference is the cost of the jacketed bullets. LOL

[paul h]

As one on of the biggest fans of the 480, I don't think I've ever said it's better than a 454, but it is different.

To me where the 454 shines is as a scoped long range revolver. With a 300 gr bullet @ 1700 fps, trajectory is flattened out and you have an honest 200 yd hunting revolver. The downside is it does generate a faster recoil and a more pronounced muzzleblast.

Why I like the 480 is that I've shot many, many 454's, 475's and 500's and I freely admint I personally can't handle that level of recoil without my groups turning into patterns. I shot a 480 shortly after it was introduced and found the recoil to be that of a big 44 mag. When I hunt with a handgun I prefer it to be iron sighted and shots to be close, hence I don't need the added range of a 454.

If someone has a 454 and shoots it well, I don't see any benefit in going to a 480/475. If however someone is looking to get more gun than a 44 mag, but doesn't want brutal recoil, to me the 480 fits a very real niche and to my way of thinking the 480 is ~30% more gun than the 44, and that is a jump worth taking.

Oh, and if you want to go with heavy bullets, the 480 can go up to 460 gr @ 1100 fps and still shoot very accurately.

[44man]

Paul, those are my thoughts too. Long range is where more velocity is needed.
I see it all the time on deer. A deer hit with a .44, 320 gr boolit at 100 yards shows the same reaction as the deer shot at 50 yards with a 335 gr .45 Colt. Full penetration, good blood trails and a dead deer but they just go a little farther. The .44 has bled off velocity at 100.
Now this is with behind the shoulder, double lung hits. If you smack a deer in the shoulders or spine at 100 yards with either, it drops and the boolit does not stop. You would be amazed at the penetration of a 335 gr .45 colt boolit starting at 1160 fps even after going 100 yards. The comparison is with both at 50 yards, the .44 will kill faster then the Colt.
I have never had a beef with velocity and do not believe in muzzle energy figures for hunting at all. I believe only in what any bullet/boolit does before exit of any animal. I do not believe you need boolits too heavy for caliber, heavy, good but not past accuracy.
I believe more in bullet/boolit construction that matches what you do.
You can kill from 800 fps to 4000 fps but has anyone noticed NOT WITH THE SAME BULLET! Same from 20 yards to 1000 yards---NOT THE SAME BULLET.
Energy dump thoughts are also wrong, thinking a bullet that stops has transferred all energy, it can stop just under the hide and blow the side off a deer off without reaching vitals. The wrong bullet can come apart on a bone. The wrong bullet can stop on a quartering shot and not reach vitals. The wrong bullet can flatten on a bear skull.
It is not your caliber, it is what you shoot. It is what you CAN MAKE SHOOT so you can hit along with performance inside the animal.

[fivegunner]

I have to agree with Paul H. I have 2- 454`s 2 -480`s and one 475 linebaugh. the 454casull at full power has a nasty recoil , the 475 will rock you back a little. the 480 feels like a warm 44mag

[TCTex]

I have a 9.5in SRH in 44 and a 9.5in SRH in 480 and both of which are scoped. Shooting the 310gr in the 44 and the 325gr in the 480, "I" can't tell the difference in the two rounds. JMHO.

[Sturmcrow]

I think I will take the advice given and go with a 350-360gr load. I had read in multiple places that boolits above 1300fps will actually penetrate less than ones traveling slower. That got me thinking that pushing the 400gr to 1300fps would be about max. performance for anything I might try it on. However, I'm familiar with the fact that we hardly ever get something for nothing, and there has to be a reason why the 400gr loading is uncommon.

I'm planning to use a 3:1 pure lead to WW alloy, so even 1300 fps might be a bit fast. At 1650fps out of the rifle, it might be downright flattened against an animal.

It's funny, the difference between .429 and .452 is about 5%, and that's about the same as the difference between .452 and .475 and that between .475 and .500. I suppose it is not coincidence that those big bores are all about the same % apart (about the same between 41 and 44 too).

FWIW, I live in the midwest, not Alaska, so there is no reason at all that I would need a 400gr bullet at 1300 fps. Of course, that's never stopped anyone else from trying! As a math nerd, I do like too that 350gr is one twentieth of a pound.

Edit: I need to buy a mold bigger than the 300gr Lee I have now, but do not want one in both 400gr and 350gr, though I may get a lighter one in 250gr someday for plinking.

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree totaly and will add that the differnce in diameter DOES make a diffence. a 10 percent larger bullet is a substantialy bigger bullet. Its like the differnce between a 25 cal rifle and a 30 cal rifle. Ill say the same about comparing the 475 to the 500s. I love the 475 because it does everything well but the 50s do seem to slap animals down faster. Like 44 man said if your using cast and are loading past 1400 fps your probably loosing performance. Lead alloys are just not tough enough to not deform on bone at those velocitys and your going to loose penetration. No big deal if your hunting something the size of deer which if you cut through all the bs on the internet is all 95 percent of all handgun hunters ever hunt, but if your talking BIG game you should be looking for all the penetration you can get. Im not going to sit here and badmouth the 454. Ive owned a few in the past and have taken game with them and they do great. Are they any better then a stout loaded 45 colt? probably not but the 45 colt has taken every game animal on the planet. Would i take one on safari if i had a 475 available. Not a chance.

I am called crazy as a loon so forgive me!
I will forever insist that 1300 to 1400 fps range is the best for a hard flat nose boolit for hunting, anywhere else and the boolit needs some expansion and since my best shooting is with a harder boolit I have no need for more speed.
I feel the .454 is a step up from the Colt because a decent boolit can be shot faster and at say, 1350 fps, it will do anything and outstrips the .44 and the Colt. If you want to go full pressure and velocity, it really does better with a good bullet.
The problem comes in because the .454 has a slower twist and too heavy a boolit needs shot fast so you will need some expansion unless you find accuracy below 1400 fps. Most cylinders are short so a bullet needs seated deep once weight gets too high.
Even a .44 with a lighter boolit shot too fast is not as good as a heavier one at 1350 and the caliber has a weight limit. The Colt with a heavy boolit is kind of slow, kills OK but recovery is slower on deer, it has a velocity limit.
I would stay with 335 to 350 gr in the .454. In the end, there is nothing it can't do as long as you tailor the boolit/bullet for the velocity and animals hunted.
Boolit weight is not the final answer and it is not weight alone in the larger calibers. It has a lot to do with boolit length for a given weight and stability. Going to a very long boolit in a smaller caliber presents stability problems, like the 405 gr in the .44 or the crazy 700 gr in the .500, they don't work! Shoot only what is accurate.
BUT, the .475 and .500 JRH, both with the right boolit at the same velocity of around 1350 fps with a hard cast, are stunning on game, shock to them needs to be seen.
Go larger like a .460 or .500 S&W and you just open another can of worms, they are overboard.
Nothing on earth can withstand a .454 if you shoot it as intended and choose your bullet.

[44man]

I agree Lloyd, thank you.
I love pure lead and have taken over 250 deer with ML's from .45 to .54 and even the cap and ball revolver with round balls. I never recovered a single ball no matter the angle or distance on deer. My last deer with the cap and ball went straight up and fell dead. Deer at 100 yards with the .54 will spray blood like a fire hose.
But I can't shoot pure or too soft from the revolver and is why I established the velocity range I use.
Water dropped WW's work from the .44 to the .500 JRH but NOT in the 45-70 BFR, they just punch a hole but just softening the boolit can destroy a deer.
I feel the .454 should be treated like the 45-70. Even 45-70 rifles do better with soft, they killed millions of Bison.
But can the .454 shoot good with soft? I think a very hard base and a soft nose is the way to go. Or, cuss, cuss, one of the funny condom bullets!
From experience I think a flat nose, hard boolit too fast widens the pressure wave off the nose making the secondary wound channel move tissue away from the boolit path. I have no other way to explain it.
Next would be animal size for boolit choice. Big and tough animals might need harder boolits from the revolver More velocity would not hurt because tough muscles and large bone will slow the boolit in passage making more internal damage. Someone called it "dwell time." I have come to believe in the theory.
The .454 with hard boolits might be the ticket for large game but for deer size I would either slow them or expand them.
The perfect point is complete penetration with the most internal damage before exit without ruining too much meat.
Your assessment of a larger caliber is right on, even at the same velocity, bigger increases damage by leaps and bounds.