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Thread: 1885 Browning BPCR 45/70

  1. #21
    Boolit Buddy hightime's Avatar
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    I think it sounds like a plan.

    I had seen very poor perfomance with smokeless in a 45-110. BP worked great.

    Owen

  2. #22
    Banned 45 2.1's Avatar
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    oldred and bigted have given you straight information. The other info here is BP hype. The main problem your having with your smokeless load is that the boolit is undersize and too hard. Try 40 or 50:1 alloy with a fatter boolit (one that will slipfit into a fired case neck). SR 4759 is a excellent powder for this, but requires a light crimp over the front band for lighter weight slugs for it to ignite and burn correctly.

    This is a question you should ask the BP folks........ if smokeless gives poorer accuracy, then why don't you allow it in matches. Answer is because smokelss loaded right is more accurate and can give lower single digit standard deviations in velocity necessary for long range accuracy. BTDT

  3. #23
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    browning 1885 BPcr

    I was told never usa Dacron for a filler because it has been proven to ring your chamber .Now that i found a load that shoots as well as my BP loads with the bullet weight I want , I will experiment with alloys,Thanks

  4. #24
    Boolit Master MGySgt's Avatar
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    If you use dacron as a filler - fill the air space and not use it as a wad to hold the powder back you won't ring your barrell. And a 1/2 grain of dacron is affully light to start your boolit moving before your main charge goes off. - It won't stay in the barrel either - I know because I have gotten a mouth full of dacron shooting into a strong head wind - didn't happen often, but once is enough.

    Next time someone says that you will ring your barrel with dacron ask for first hand proof/knowledge that it happened. Not that I heard it from........... or I read it on the internet.

    I have shot thousands of 45/70 and 45/90's with dacron - none of my barrels are rung.

    Do a search on this forum for fillers and or dacron - you will find there is a fair amount of us that use them.
    Big Bore = 45+

  5. #25
    Boolit Master BABore's Avatar
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    I have not had a lick of problems with my Win HW 45-70 BPCR. I'm using the same exact load as in two other Marlin 45-70's with very good accuracy.

    A 462-420 PB cast from 50/50 WW-Pb at 9-10 bhn. Sized 0.454, paper patched to 0.460 dia to slip fit into a fired case, and lubed with a BW/vaseline mix. 27.0 grains of SR 4759 with 1/2 gr of Dacron filler. Federal 210M match primers. Starline cases were fire formed and neck sized to give 0.003" neck tension. A Redding profile crimp die was used for a light crimp.

    The last time out this load put the first 4 rounds into 1 1/4" at 100 yards. A lull in the slight breeze put a shadow acrossed the target from the surrounding trees and shifted my last 6 rounds. They went into 1 1/8" about an inch or so from the first 4 shots. This load does just as well in my Marlins.

  6. #26
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45 2.1 View Post
    This is a question you should ask the BP folks........ if smokeless gives poorer accuracy, then why don't you allow it in matches. Answer is because smokelss loaded right is more accurate and can give lower single digit standard deviations in velocity necessary for long range accuracy. BTDT
    There is a rather long list of "matches" whereby you can attend and proove your thesis. You could also shoot in NRA Blackpowder matches with your smokeless loads, if there was space available on the line, but you would not be eligible for prize awards or classifactions.
    They do call it "BLACK POWDER" CARTRIDGE RIFLE" for a reason.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  7. #27
    Banned 45 2.1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don McDowell View Post
    There is a rather long list of "matches" whereby you can attend and proove your thesis. You could also shoot in NRA Blackpowder matches with your smokeless loads, if there was space available on the line, but you would not be eligible for prize awards or classifactions.
    They do call it "BLACK POWDER" CARTRIDGE RIFLE" for a reason.
    "Black Powder Cartridge Rifle"......Thanks but no thanks. If I shoot with someone, I don't want to be ineligible for equal chance due to powder type hype. When your own guys say they can win with 1.5 to 2 MOA accuracy with BP in their rifles and reports come in from unregistered matches that your own BP guys win with smokeless, I hardly believe that you would procede on equal or fair footing........ so black powder only for you works only for you. Of course there is the possibility you could make it do better......... but we've been there before.

  8. #28
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Actually both types of powder work wonderfully well. Altho if you go back even to the turn of the last century and read what folks like Ned Roberts had to say, it was hard even then for smokeless to keep up with the blackpowder and patched bullet shooters.
    There are a number of Schuetzen matches quite close to you where either powder is allowed sidebyside , prizes and all. Would be good to see you on one of the shooters rosters complete with scores.
    And we could go into the long list of bpcr type shoots where you can also compete with smokeless for all the bannannas in the pile if your shooting ability and loads are up to the task.
    Having done alot of load developement with both types of powder in a number of different rifles, day in and day out, blackpowder gives the best consistant accuracy in my rifles. My wifes Winchester bpcr in 45-70 definetly shows a preference for blackpowder, and even beyond that it prefers bullets in the 480 gr weight at 458-459 diameter.
    Folks to often ignore what the past has shown us and try to lob bullets that are to heavy for the given amount of velocity available for a given cartridge. Staying with bullets 500 grs and under in a 45-70 will dramatically improove results out to the 1000 yd line, no matter which type of powder a person prefers.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don McDowell View Post
    Altho if you go back even to the turn of the last century and read what folks like Ned Roberts had to say, it was hard even then for smokeless to keep up with the blackpowder and patched bullet shooters.
    It's not very likely that turn of the century smokeless vs BP was nearly the same as the wide variety of excellent smokeless powders we have today! Personally I love shooting BP in my BPCRs and I do get excellent results with it but I also get excellent results with my smokeless loads, different kind of shooting and it takes a different approach to get either load to work right but both are a LOT of fun. I really don't understand all the BP hype some folks attempt to force on others, sure BP works great but how often when someone asks for advice on a smokeless load (in the proper forum no less!) does he have people telling him, "that 45/** round just ain't gonna shoot smokeless because it was designed for BP", when the fact is a heck of a lot of people get excellent accuracy with smokeless. Like I said before BP is just plain fun and anyone with a rifle suitable for BP owes it to themselves to try it but for any of us to insist they MUST use BP and that smokeless just won't work is simply being silly. This is certainly not aimed at the person I quoted or anyone in particular and I am just talking about how the conversation often goes when the smokeless question comes up for these bigger cases, suggesting using BP and giving advice on doing so is great but INSISTING on BP and sometimes even going so far as to tell the person they need to sell their rifle if they don't want to shoot BP (this happened here recently) is just going to far. More people will be won over to our sport by friendly and honest advice than will be from insisting on hyping a preference for one powder or the other, Let's keep it fun!

  10. #30
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Olred, I would urge you to get ahold of a copy of Ned Roberts Schuetzen rifle book and read it. There is a ton of excellent info contained there that is still almost as pertinent today as it was then. More than likely the advantage then to blackpowder was due to the chambers and rifling still being cut for blackpowder and paper patch bullets.
    Yes smokeless can be made to go quite accurate, in some cartridges, in others more specifically the large capacity cases it can be more of a headache and danger than black.
    In the op's current winchester bpcr it was cut with a chamber intended to be competetive in blackpowder competition, and it is. Searching out and finding the smokeless powder and bullet that it likes is a bigger problem. Altho the deep recessed crowns they put on those things are not really conducive to good cast bullet shooting as the lube tends to congregate in that crown and will have an affect on accuracy.
    As to the keep it fun part... Absolutely, but this endless grousing about not being able to go to an NRA blackpowder cartridge rifle event, with any old piece of **** gun shooting whatever smokeless powder Walmart happens to have on sale has gone past the rediculous point. Blackpowder and the specific list of rifles allowed have been well known for a number of years, either a person conforms to the rules of the game, or stays out and quits the ballbaby stuff...
    .And the list of excuses why those same grousers don't show up to the dozens of shooting matches where they can shoot about any single shot or leveraction gun they care to, with as most of the rules state "any safe powder charge and lead bullet," is getting excessively old....
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  11. #31
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Hiwall 55 I just noticed your location. There are a couple of folks that shoot at the club at Quincy and live nearby, that would probably give you a ton of in person hands on help. If you're interested in making contact with them let me know via pm and I'll give you contact info.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master MGySgt's Avatar
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    Some of us don't live in a place that has a BP crowd where we can leanr the in's and out and shoot BP with others.

    Some us are retired on a lower fixed income and we can't aford to drive 100-150 miles one way when a) we don't know anyone there and b) don't really know how we will be accepted because we are shooting this rifle, or that rifle and wearing modern cloths vice the old west style.

    So we just don't even attempt to get involved.
    Big Bore = 45+

  13. #33
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    mgysgt. I have never ever been to a shoot that requires period clothing in any sort of bpcr function either NRA sanctioned or not.... There is one that I know of that requires period clothing, but it is by invite only, and the invite list is mostly a close knit group of folks in western Montana.
    A person really does not need a "bp" crowd to be able to learn the ins and outs of shooting bp. After all it's well documented today, and is something that most every 10 year old kid knew in the late 1800's. It's easy enough to jump on any one of a dozen forums and ask questions and get good answers.
    I don't know how things works east of the Mississippi, but I can tell you with certainty that in the midwest and rockymtn states, bpcr shooters will jump over backwards to help a new shooter out at a shoot. No matter what blend of powder they are using, or brand of rifle.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  14. #34
    Banned 45 2.1's Avatar
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    There are a number of Schuetzen matches quite close to you where either powder is allowed sidebyside , prizes and all. Would be good to see you on one of the shooters rosters complete with scores. I know and have shot with some of those folks. I'm not interested in the equipment game. Millers with breech seated boolits are tough.
    And we could go into the long list of bpcr type shoots where you can also compete with smokeless for all the bannannas in the pile if your shooting ability and loads are up to the task.
    Type matches don't interest me.
    Having done alot of load developement with both types of powder in a number of different rifles, day in and day out, blackpowder gives the best consistant accuracy in my rifles. My wifes Winchester bpcr in 45-70 definetly shows a preference for blackpowder, and even beyond that it prefers bullets in the 480 gr weight at 458-459 diameter.
    Smokeless and black are as different as night and day. Smokeless shoots much smaller long range groups for me. If one puts in enough time to learn what to do...just like BP did for most like you.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master MGySgt's Avatar
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    Don,

    If there is no local crowd or place that shoots BP - Why bother? Unless you want to try and hunt with BP. I have hunted with a Repro of an 1866 Sharps Business Rifle in 45/90, but I used smokeless. It was fun.

    I don't hunt anymore (medical reasons) I would like to get involved in a shooting sport, (Not SASS thought - they are the ones that snubbed me about period clothing).

    The local range closed their Rifle and Pistol range down a few years ago with an unknow date to re-open. Only thing they shoot is Trap and Skeet - Not really interested in it.

    Eastern middle part of Virgina has had a few ranges close down. A few of the private ones hadn't held any matches that I am aware of in awhile. (By Private I mean like the Issac Walton League).

    I can shoot because I have a range in my back yard and I do shoot there, have a nice HIGH berm and just woods behind it for a few miles.
    Big Bore = 45+

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don McDowell View Post
    Olred, I would urge you to get ahold of a copy of Ned Roberts Schuetzen rifle book and read it. There is a ton of excellent info contained there that is still almost as pertinent today as it was then. More than likely the advantage then to blackpowder was due to the chambers and rifling still being cut for blackpowder and paper patch bullets....
    I never doubted that most of it is, just that smokeless powders have changed a lot since then and we have a much wider variety to choose from for any given round.


    Quote Originally Posted by Don McDowell View Post
    As to the keep it fun part... Absolutely, but this endless grousing about not being able to go to an NRA blackpowder cartridge rifle event, with any old piece of **** gun shooting whatever smokeless powder Walmart happens to have on sale has gone past the rediculous point. Blackpowder and the specific list of rifles allowed have been well known for a number of years, either a person conforms to the rules of the game, or stays out and quits the ballbaby stuff...
    .And the list of excuses why those same grousers don't show up to the dozens of shooting matches where they can shoot about any single shot or leveraction gun they care to, with as most of the rules state "any safe powder charge and lead bullet," is getting excessively old....


    I agree 110%, "Crashing" a meet or griping about not being allowed to compete in an event that is setup up for a certain sport is even worse than insisting that only BP can be used successfully and it's rude to even try! A Blackpowder meet is just that and whatever rules are set up by the organizers should be respected and if a person don't agree with how it's run then either find another event or organize your own! That however is an entirely different subject to answering someone who is asking about a certain powder with an obviously biased reply that often is simply not correct. Again, encouraging a person to try BP and see for themselves what it's all about is great but telling someone to just forget about it, or worse yet telling them to go elsewhere, if they don't have any interest in it sends the wrong message.

  17. #37
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    Thoreau said something like, "Beware of any enterprise that requires new clothes, rather than a new wearer of clothes."
    There are actually three invitationals in this area, the two at Lone Tree require period clothing to shoot on the line, the Death March doesn't.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  18. #38
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    MGYsgt, they do shoot bpcr creedmoor at Quantico.
    I'm not even familiar with your part of the world but there are a number of bpcr matches in several states bordering Va. Those can be found at the NRA's competitive shooting website.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  19. #39
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Waksupi it's always good to learn a bit more. Which one of those are Carmen's matches?
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  20. #40
    Boolit Master MGySgt's Avatar
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    Don,

    I have 2 rifles that could possibly be used.

    A IAB Repro of an 1866 Sharps Business Rifle in 45/90. Start life as a 45/70 and had it rechambers by Lee Shaver as well as having the set triggers hardened. It will shoot my 430 FP in front of 3031 and dacron - But I really don't think that rifle will last with a ton of shooting I would be doing in that.

    The other is a Pedersoli Quigley - also in 45/90 - that is too heavy 13 1/4 pounds.

    So I would have to buy a new rifle and that just isn't in the budget right now.

    But I do have about 1000 pounds of pure lead......................

    HMMMMMMMMM
    Big Bore = 45+

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check