Is anyone loading .38 S&W...

[LouisianaMan]

Lyman #358430 when fired at 700-725 FPS at jackrabbits seemed to have tumbled frequently, if the ragged stellate-aspect exit wounds were any indicator. At 1150-1225 FPS from the 357 Magnum, they seemed to drill straight through. NEI #169A, a design that imitates the RN form of the earlier 200 grain British service bullet, also seems to tumble while passing through jacks whem started in the 675-700 FPS ballpark. None of my crime victims--living or dead--was hit with a 38 S&W of any sort IIRC. I also have not launched the NEI bullet much faster than 700 FPS. FWIW.

Hello 9.3,
I've fired only at inanimate targets with these 200g bullets, and not nearly as much as you have. However the Lyman 358430 and its clones have a very blunt nose that approaches the old Super Police and British Mk. 1/1Z 200g lead military loads. The 200g NEI 169A's extremely long, tapered ogive more nearly approximates the shape (and characteristics, I think) of the later 178g British Mk. 2/2Z FMJ bullet.

Shooting at water jugs, wool overcoats and the like, I definitely observed that the lower-velocity 590-610 fps bullets destabilized and tumbled more consistently and sooner after target penetration, than did hotter-loaded .38 S&W or .38 Special 200g @ 650-725 fps.

Your thoughts?

[texasnative46]

LouisianaMan,

GREETINGS from The Alamo City. - YEP, I miss South LA, the great food (haven't had any decent crawfish etouffee with rice, in I don't know how long.), hunting, fishing, music, "chicken chasers" & most of all the GREAT folks who are from there.
To answer your questions:
1. What passed for "hot .38SPL loads" in those long ago days/DAZE was a 150 grain HP at about 900FPS. = The department bought Remington factory loaded ammo "on contract".
2. YES, our department's "range rats" believed that the "tumbling effect" of the 200 grain soft lead bullets made the .38S&W loads essentially equal to the "expensive factory HP ammo". - Obviously, hitting & splintering a bone(s) inside the chest cavity would make a wound more severe. SEEING the damage to the inside of the opened chest at autopsy made me "a believer" in heavy-for-caliber lead RN bullets at SELF-DEFENSE ranges. - Our department issued the "one buck revolvers", as the "bean-counters" & the Sheriff believed that the office personnel/detectives/females didn't need anything more powerful.
(Fwiw, "the veteran deputies" thought it was funny to send the "smart-ast college kid" to every possible autopsy & "made sure that" I was dispatched to all the fatal TA scenes/drownings/"messy" suicide scenes. - The didn't know that "I was raised up in" a city/county hospital, that my aunt managed, from age 5-6YO onwards. = "Blood, guts & gore" doesn't much effect me, unless it's MINE, though "floaters" & "crispy critters" are MOST UNPLEASANT to be around..)
and
3. YEP, I agree with your final comment & believe my "cheap 'big boolit' @200 grain cast reloads" are "quite adequate" for self-defense out to at least 25M AND those CB loads are certainly easier on my .38SPL "snubbie", that I routinely carry since I retired from LE, than "hot" JHP loads are. - The 200 grain low-velocity also don't "kick" as much either in my little air-weight "snubbie".

just my OPINIONS, tex

[9.3X62AL]

My observed impressions of the "tumbling" effects to the #358430 in 38 Special and the NEI #169A in 38 S&W is that the effect is occasional and not reliable or predictable, regardless of velocities. The #358430 at 1100-1200 FPS very reliably drove straight through, though--so, my thoughts are that by default and empirical data the slower bullets may tend to tumble in media more readily. I wouldn't bet the farm on that trait's behavior.

One thing abundantly clear, though--a 200 grain bullet started at 700 FPS strikes iron plate at 25 yards with A WHOLE LOT MORE WHOMP than do the 150 grainers (#358477) started at 700-725 FPS. A lot more is going on with these heavies in 38/200.

My NEI #169A castings weigh 202 grains in WW alloy, FWIW. They shoot where the sights look at 25 yards from the S&W M&P and the Webley-Enfield at 675-700 FPS, prompted by 3.0 grains of Unique or 3.3 grains of Herco.

[texasnative46]

9.3x62AL,

Fwiw, my reloads that I routinely fire in my little Airweight S&W "snubbie" are about the same as the load that you mention. = I do NOT think that for SELF-DEFENSE that a person needs anything more powerful than that load at ranges out to 25-30M.
(imVho, anything that cannot be "fixed" by 5 or 6 well-aimed shots from a .38SPL revolver is a job for a rifle/shotgun AND hopefully someone coming soon as "back up".)

yours, tex

[9.3X62AL]

Tex--

I haven't employed the 38 S&Ws as defensive tools, they are sport guns for me. That said--I darn sure will not stand downrange and try fielding those 200 grain slugs running sedately at 600-625 FPS with a baseball glove, either. In 52 years of hunting and 28 years of cop work, I never saw a gunshot wound recipient whose status was enhanced by having been hit.

I keep my Colt Police Positive 38 S&W close to original ballistics--150 grain-class bullets in the 700-750 FPS realm. I would probably do likewise with a J-frame S&W variant. I have the luxury of having other stronger arms to expand velocity potential with, so straining the capabilities of these little jewels is not a priority for me. You make a VERY valid point with your mention of rifles, shotguns, and more armed assistance as better responses to lethal threat gestures.

[FergusonTO35]

I've really come to appreciate the Lyman 35891 wadcutter with short SWC style ogive in my .38 Specials. All my revolvers shoot it well, I think of these rounds as the "longneck" .38 S&W as the OAL and velocity is similar to a .38 S&W.

[LouisianaMan]

I've really come to appreciate the Lyman 35891 wadcutter with short SWC style ogive in my .38 Specials. All my revolvers shoot it well, I think of these rounds as the "longneck" .38 S&W as the OAL and velocity is similar to a .38 S&W.

Looked up that mold and it looks just like the Lee .358-148-WC I use and love. I have loaded it "long" as specified in Speer 13, crimping in the second lube groove, tumble-lubed, and gotten velocities that were *significantly* higher than the book stated! As in, shockingly higher Jim Cirillo would have been proud!

Accuracy was beautiful, and SD was reaching the disappearing point. I have experimented with lighter loads, crimped with shorter COLs per Lee 2nd .38 SPL data, and using various powders, and the results have always been excellent. POI has always been close to POA, probably because this 148g bullet is squarely in the 145-50g weight range used in standard .38 S&W / .38 Colt New Police loads.

I'm no cloverleaf shooter, but the Lee 140 SWC, 158 SWC, and this 148 WC, have always shot extremely well for me in .38 S&W, with the WC probably edging out the SWCs.

[texasnative46]

9.3x62AL,

I did NOT say earlier, though lots of folks here know, that my 1st fulltime LE job was as a railroad agent for a small railroad & I first started using a BIG/SOFT lead bullet because it "splatters" when it hits something like the side of a steel boxcar, rather than ricocheting all over the place. - Rail yards have LOTS of steel things to cause that (possibly life ending) problem.

Then, after I shot a VERY large, VERY vicious stray dog with my little Colt's Cobra , that made a run at me one night & killed him GYD, I discovered that at SD ranges that that big/heavy/slow boolit is A KILLER.
(Incidentally, my other firearm was a circa 1910 DB 12 gauge Parker with "sawed off" tubes.- I did NOT feel under-armed, even working alone. Shortly after I started work, I inherited a 90+# German Shepard ***** from a friend, who had passed away, too. = As the local sheriff said to a local thug, who had acquired the habit of stealing from the RR, "Tex & 'his partner' are a really poor bet for you to get past. I suggest that you stay away from there."
(After a while, I went to work for the SO & ended up as the county's "designated stock detective" but that's another story for another time.)

yours, tex

[Outpost75]

Re-read this thread after a respite, and still think that for my 2": S&W 32-1 that the Accurate 36-176P with 2.5 grains of Bullseye in the .38 S&W or 3.2 grains in the .38 Special for the Model 36 Chief's Special is "it." I see no reason to load anything else.

Attachment 200778

[LouisianaMan]

Until and unless we start winning the health battle decisively here at home, my participation in every shooting activity has largely been limited to reading, on-line buying, but practically no casting, loading, or shooting!!!

If I am to accomplish anything for the time being, my best shot is to skip the endless tinkering I love to do and settle on a formula such as you've just identified. Until and unless I live on rural property again, my ability to load a few, walk out of the garage to my "test facilities", try everything out, and then walk back inside and tweak stuff on the spot, just is beyond reach.

The old saying, "perfection is the enemy of good enough," is one I must dust off and use again in this instance. I'll scan the thread a bit, but if you have the opportunity to point me at the right post or simply copy & paste your Pet Loads results, I would appreciate it!!

Re-read this thread after a respite, and still think that for my 2": S&W 32-1 that the Accurate 36-176P with 2.5 grains of Bullseye in the .38 S&W or 3.2 grains in the .38 Special for the Model 36 Chief's Special is "it." I see no reason to load anything else.

Attachment 200778

[tucumcari_kid]

at a "full-tilt" level? The commercially loaded 700-fps 148-grain load doesn't have that much power (for sparing the top-break revolvers).

The solid-framed "I" and "J" frame revolvers aren't prohibited from taking a healthy 850 fps load from a 4" barrel. While there aren't many of these around, are many owners loading peak loads in them?

Scott

I'm sorry I came into this late. I have 2 or 3 38 S&Ws. I have a terrier and a Victory model, plus some break tops that are not part of this conversation. It is sad that a person asks "who is loading ... (something)" and the replies become everyone's thoughts on NOT reloading. Isn't really pertinent. Sharpe's loads listed in 1937 (read that again, 1937, a little before the Victory model came out and well after the heat treating of cylinders ... anyway Sharpe's load listed for 145 grain bullet was 3.0 to 4.7 grains of Unique. That made 895 FPS and a moderate 15,000 in pressure. His max load for the 38 special in that weight and powder was only 5.3 grains. Most of this accounts for the difference in case size, rather than, difference in pistols. Many Victory models and M&Ps of the day were bored out to 38 Special anyway. The frames (K-Frame equiv) of the 38 specials and the 38 S&W were identical as far as I can tell, so there isn't some huge difference in the guns. (I also owned a Model 13 357 magnum K frame -- does that bother anyone that there are 357 Mag K frames out there?) The original post was "who is loading adult loads" for this caliber and it is a valid question. The point is how to maximize performance of the round. Everyone knows it isn't a 357 magnum, but getting the most out of a round is a valid pass-time, especially in modern guns. By the way, Sharpe listed a load for 38 Special with 173 grain bullet - 5.0 grains of Unique pushing the round at 925 FPS and 15,000 pounds of pressure. That load might strike many as a +P load, but then, this was 1937 in 1937 or earlier hardware, published by the man who helped develop the 357 magnum. Point of all this isn't to punish the firearms or endanger anyone. The point is that there is reasonable room to make the 38 S&W do it's job and get the best performance out of it. I don't think we need to constantly avoid performance testing the 38 S&W.

[tucumcari_kid]

Tex--

I haven't employed the 38 S&Ws as defensive tools, they are sport guns for me. That said--I darn sure will not stand downrange and try fielding those 200 grain slugs running sedately at 600-625 FPS with a baseball glove, either. In 52 years of hunting and 28 years of cop work, I never saw a gunshot wound recipient whose status was enhanced by having been hit.

I keep my Colt Police Positive 38 S&W close to original ballistics--150 grain-class bullets in the 700-750 FPS realm. I would probably do likewise with a J-frame S&W variant. I have the luxury of having other stronger arms to expand velocity potential with, so straining the capabilities of these little jewels is not a priority for me. You make a VERY valid point with your mention of rifles, shotguns, and more armed assistance as better responses to lethal threat gestures.

I remember Dean Grennell writing at length about the lethality of the 38 Super and what a great cartridge it is/could be. At the end of one piece he said, that while it is a great round, if you know you're going in to a life and death situation, the preferred cartridge is the 12 gauge with 0000 buckshot. That would be the equivalent of 8 .38 caliber balls each time you pull the trigger, rather than just one bullet. An old colleague of mine one said, Nickle plated pump. So they can see that you have it, and they get to hear you rack the round, they know what it is...

[9.3X62AL]

That old "Gauge" is the Great Disincentivizer.

That "37-176P" design would do a lot of things very well for any of the 38 caliber cartridges.

[Outpost75]

That old "Gauge" is the Great Disincentivizer.

That "37-176P" design would do a lot of things very well for any of the 38 caliber cartridges.

It's 36-176P, but yes it would, and there is also the 177P version without the bevel-base if you prefer, but the 176P has a larger .255" meplat which is 0.7 of the bullet diameter and is about maximum to maintain good accuracy at subsonic velocities.

[bob208]

I worked up a hot load for a s&w victory with 5 inch barrel. both victories I have worked with had tight bores. the load I used is the 358429 as cast. powder charge is the max charge for the 200 gr. bullet in the lyman manual.

one victory was used by a deputy sheriff. this was when they had to have their own pistol. so his father gave him the old victory. he used it for years. then bought a ruger security-six. he left the smith home for his wife.

the other is mine I use the same load it works well in my gun also.

[tucumcari_kid]

It's 36-176P, but yes it would, and there is also the 177P version without the bevel-base if you prefer.

I have been thinking about grabbing a 195 or 200 grain, but I really like that design. It is interesting that you posted the 177P because I was thinking I wasn't really interested in GC because I want my speeds under 900. Maybe if I try it and it works well in a 357, I might want to bump that up for Magnum purposes, but otherwise, Big and Slow is the Way to Go.

[tucumcari_kid]

I worked up a hot load for a s&w victory with 5 inch barrel. both victories I have worked with had tight bores. the load I used is the 358429 as cast. powder charge is the max charge for the 200 gr. bullet in the lyman manual.

one victory was used by a deputy sheriff. this was when they had to have their own pistol. so his father gave him the old victory. he used it for years. then bought a ruger security-six. he left the smith home for his wife.

the other is mine I use the same load it works well in my gun also.

My Victory and my 32-1 are both under .360. I bet there is a point in time that S&W gave up on 360 bore and just moved everything over to 358. I read a VERY old article yesterday -- like 1901, where the author said he always needed bigger loads in Colts because the 38 bores were always larger than S&W and he needed to bump up the bullet. He said the S&W, even then, had moved closer to a uniform 38 bore.

[9.3X62AL]

Tale Of The Tape on my 38 S&W ensemble......

Colt Police Positive x 4", 1920 vintage.......359" throats, .358" grooves. Size at .359".

S&W M&P "Victory" x 5", WWII era.......363" throats, grooves not slugged (no V-block). Size at .363"

Webley/Enfield 38/200, WWII era......362"-.363" throats, grooves not slugged. Size at .363"

All of the above revolvers shoot with reasonable accuracy and without bore leading, even with long range days. Alloy is either WW or 94/3/1 (50/50 mix of Taracorp and lead), lube is NRA 50/50 Alox/BW.

[JWFilips]

S&W Pistols chambered for 38 S&W cartridge need to shoot bullets that a .362" minimum! (Many years of experience behind that statement)
If you are looking for commercial supplied bullets "Matt Bullets" are one of the better suppliers
Ask for his 149 Grain sized .363! Then you will be on the road to accuracy

[LouisianaMan]

Going from memory, but pretty sure I'm correct: Matt is "happy7" on the CB forum. Great bullet caster, idea man, honcho of group buys--a great American!

I have a box of his .38-200 (Mk 1 & .38 Super Police duplicate), and need to get a box of his 180g LHP's. I suspect the former are great in a .38 S&W Terrier/M32-1 snubbie, and the LHP's should be spectacular from 4" Regulation Police/M33-1 and 4" Colts. Of course the 200g loads will be fine from 4" guns, too. If that 180g LHP will expand from a snub .38 S&W...that will be crazy!

Probably going to be a great way to have "factory ammo" made with the care of handloaded ammo.

And nope, I'm not on his payroll, he just deserves the props!

S&W Pistols chambered for 38 S&W cartridge need to shoot bullets that a .362" minimum! (Many years of experience behind that statement)
If you are looking for commercial supplied bullets "Matt Bullets" are one of the better suppliers
Ask for his 149 Grain sized .363! Then you will be on the road to accuracy