Flare

[ColColt]

Sometimes I think I'm resizing my boolits by the amount of or lack of enough flare. I usually flare them so that half the base band just enters the case mouth by hand before seating. Maybe I should change that to seat the full height of the bottom band. What's your take on this?

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I flare just enough to accept the base of the boolit without risking shaving lead. It sounds like you are really asking about the diameter of the seating plug which determines neck tension. In earlier years companies made some seating plugs which were overly large and had to be reduced in size by a gunsmith. One example of the problem originated from the .45 Colt bore diameter changing from the .454” to .452” and loading .452” boolits into cases expanded for .454” boolits. Inadequate neck tension created crimping and ignition programs but dies manufactured in recent years have corrected this problem. IMO boolits cast and cooled for 24 hours shouldn’t experience any resizing by being seated in brass cases. It would be interesting to flare say a .44 Special brass to accept a .45 cast boolit, seat it, pull it and measure it.

[Catshooter]

Col,

The way to tell is to measure. Measure the boolit prior to seating, load it, and then pull it. Measure. Then you'll know.

The Lee Factory Crimp Die can also re-size 'em. But measuring will tell you for sure.


Cat

[462]

I don't "flare" the brass, I "expand" it. I'm a Lyman M-die believer and use them religiously, with both factory and custom-made expander plugs. I prefer the main section to be .002" under boolit diameter and the same length as the boolit, and the step .001" over boolit diameter and about 1/16" deep.

As the saying goes: Your mileage may vary.

[ColColt]

When I said "flare", I mean when I expand the case mouth to accept the boolit. Maybe I should have expanded on that a little more. I use RCBS dies and flare or expand the case mouth to just accept the boolit base enough so the case won't collapse and then roll crimp 357 and 44 cases. I think maybe I should expand it more but will do it that way and pull one or two to see if indeed the boolit is being sized down or not.

Sometimes I can see a slight sliver of lead at the case mouth after seating and crimping and that's what got me wondering.

[jmsj]

ColColt,
I have to agree w/ all the above posts.
I am lucky enough to have access to a lathe at work and have been building my own expander plugs for many of my dies. I have been making my main section .001" under bullet diameter for the length of the deepest seated bullet I use and the mouth section .003" over bullet diameter.
I came up with these dimensions from a thread quite a while back. 462 and others put out a lot of good ideas on that thread. These homemade expanders have stopped the lead shaving while seating and the swaging down of my softer target bullets.
good luck, jmsj

[462]

ColColt,
Didn't mean to step on your toes, and perhaps I should have been more clear, too.

A flared case mouth does not securely hold the boolit in line with the case -- the boolit can wobble about and enter the seating die at some odd angle and be seated crooked.

Instead of the expander plug being tapered, like a flaring die, the M-die's two diameters are parallel, which allows the boolit to sit securely and perpendicular to the case, as it enters the seating die.

This may be helpful: http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_LymanMDies.htm

[subsonic]

There's a lot going on here. For me those lead rings mostly happen during crimping, not seating. I think the crimp ring in the die is shaving the OD of the front driving band of the boolit.

[MtGun44]

If you use Hornady dies, they have a floating sleeve that ensures that the boolit will
enter the case straight. I flare and use Hornady dies in most of my loading.

Bill

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Subsonic’s opinion is consistent with my findings, the silver ring of lead and lead shavings at the case mouth is eliminated when I crimp in a separate stage after fully seating. I’ve never tried those Hornady dies but when RCBS cuts a seater plug custom for my boolits it appears to me that the boolit is then guided into the case fairly straight. Straight enough for my horse revolvers anyway.

[gray wolf]

Crimp in two separate steps,
the bullet could still be moving while it's being crimped.

[44man]

I don't "flare" the brass, I "expand" it. I'm a Lyman M-die believer and use them religiously, with both factory and custom-made expander plugs. I prefer the main section to be .002" under boolit diameter and the same length as the boolit, and the step .001" over boolit diameter and about 1/16" deep.

As the saying goes: Your mileage may vary.

No, not me. Just enough flare to get the boolit to enter, no more. The die should center the boolit and keep it straight.
The "M" die loses case tension. A solution for soft boolits with no advantage at all. Lyman is famous for soft lead.
I bought a Lyman neck size die for the 45-70 and over size boolits fall in the case.
Some dies start to remove the flare and start the crimp before the boolit is fully seated so it will give you a lead ring. Remove the sharp edge in trimmed brass and it goes away. Almost everything I shoot is seated and crimped in one step.
Do you know the little tool you twist in the case mouth?

[ColColt]

462, You didn't step on my toes, I thought it was just maybe a difference of terminology. I've never used anything but RCBS dies-even way back from the start in 1969...well, I did get a set of Pacific dies when I couldn't find the RCBS dies for a 30-06 I once had. I've never tried any other.

I do, however, seat and crimp in two separate operations in all calibers. Ya'll may be right about the ring of lead at the mouth of the case happening during the crimp process. I just didn't pay attention and figured it was most likely during seating.

I have seen finished rounds with a slight bulge(more visual than actual feeling) on one side of the case where the base band would be inside the case. That pretty much tells me the bullet's not entering the case during seating as exact as it should be. So, the M-die would be more beneficial than the standard seat/crimp die I'm now using to eliminate that?

[Catshooter]

Col,

The answer to your last question is yes. The M die is far superoir to all others that I have tried.

That little sliver of lead can come from the bottom or during crimping. The M die can cure the first, and crimping as a seperate operation can cure the second. If you're crimping in a seperate step that the sliver may be from the base.

Way to tell is pull the next one that does it see where the sliver comes from. Then you know what to try.


Cat

[44man]

462, You didn't step on my toes, I thought it was just maybe a difference of terminology. I've never used anything but RCBS dies-even way back from the start in 1969...well, I did get a set of Pacific dies when I couldn't find the RCBS dies for a 30-06 I once had. I've never tried any other.

I do, however, seat and crimp in two separate operations in all calibers. Ya'll may be right about the ring of lead at the mouth of the case happening during the crimp process. I just didn't pay attention and figured it was most likely during seating.

I have seen finished rounds with a slight bulge(more visual than actual feeling) on one side of the case where the base band would be inside the case. That pretty much tells me the bullet's not entering the case during seating as exact as it should be. So, the M-die would be more beneficial than the standard seat/crimp die I'm now using to eliminate that?

My worst groups were in the .44 with RCBS dies. Expander too long and opened brass too much. I had BR collar dies made but they are a pain. I found Hornady dies make loads almost as accurate. They have a good seat die that holds boolits in line better.
You do really need a BR type seat die. Slow seating to let boolits center.
The "M" die is for soft lead. It works but soft does not shoot as good from a revolver. The die removes tension.
Use dies that seat boolits straight. Accuracy starts at your bench.
I use every make of dies but you must understand what they do. Most can be corrected.
Long ago I had neck bending problems with rifles using Redding dies. The worst were the Weatherby rounds. I sent dies back with fired brass and they lapped free. Now they charge you. I found dies sized too much and the expander bent necks when pulled out.
Redding now has collar dies that you fit. Super smart outfit but they have not gone far enough for the revolver. They do have new dies for the .45 Colt, worth looking into.
Use your RCBS, Lyman or Lee dies and wonder what is wrong. A revolver is still considered a 7 yard gun no matter the caliber. Die makers have to consider a revolver can shoot FAR.

[12DMAX]

RCBS will send you a .4505 expander for free, just call and ask.

[ColColt]

I'm interested in this M die. Think I'll look into that more. My 44 Magnum (M29-3) is probably the most accurate revolver I currently have and I use RCBS dies with it as with all the others. I've actually had more luck with that caliber than the 357 as for accuracy and no leading. This is a a group with the 260 gr RNFP from Accurate Molds.

[44man]

I'm interested in this M die. Think I'll look into that more. My 44 Magnum (M29-3) is probably the most accurate revolver I currently have and I use RCBS dies with it as with all the others. I've actually had more luck with that caliber than the 357 as for accuracy and no leading. This is a a group with the 260 gr RNFP from Accurate Molds.

Long ago, I used RCBS for everything. But had revolver problems.
Shooting IHMSA even with jacketed was a failure until I solved the case tension issues.
Then a gun writer had an article (Back when they really worked.) about the poor performance of the .45 Colt. He went to RCBS and said the expander was wrong---WOW after all of my own work! RCBS changed the expander for the .45 but not the .44. I altered mine but the BR dies were better. The Hornady die has an expander that is only 3/8" long and does not open too much at the start and lets the boolit expand the rest as it is seated. The boolit actually goes into brass that is not expanded at all below where the expander plug goes. It needs harder boolits.
I had 5 model 29's and every one would put 5 shots into 1/2" at 50 yards with open sights from Creedmore as long as I loaded right. I won IHMSA state with my SBH with 79 out of 80 and the last ram miss was my fault, I was ragged out. If you have never run 20 straight turkeys at 150 meters with a SBH, you do not know anything.
ColColt knows and shoots great and he is also right about the .357. It can be a super thorn in the side. I no longer own one but load for friends with their dies so I went and looked just now. Yeah, RCBS dies! The dies are great but they still make expanders that are not right, far too deep into the brass and too large in diameter.
Almost every die set made will do the job but it is the expander that controls accuracy. You NEED even case tension, not so much HOW much, but it must be even case to case. I am sure you have boolits slip in easy in one case but you have to push the next in. THERE IS YOUR PROBLEM! Many think crimp will solve it---just forget it.
Guys use soft lead so they need to expand more. "M" die. Then they crimp like crazy to get powder burn. What does a hard crimp do to a soft boolit?
A boolit must be tough enough to resist slump, seating, crimp and skid. Even jacketed for IHMSA needed even case tension. That is why no revolver shooter ever beat me.

[paul h]

I flare as little as possible as excessive flare will result in your cases cracking after only a few resizing sessions. Flare enough to get the bullets to seat without shaving lead, and no more.