What happen to the 300 H&H Magnums? Winchester M70 NM Target Rifle gone too?

[Larry Gibson]

Most all rifles mentioned in this thread were/are match/target M70s. A modern Palma rifle will have a custom single shot action with a 28 - 30+" barrel of light target contour and there is a weight restriction and iron sights only. There is currently no cartridge restriction but the bullet must be between 145 and 155 gr. Might be some other changes as I've not checked the rules lately. When .308W/7.62 NATO was the required cartridge barrels were 28-32", of light target contour and of 13 or 14" twist. The longer barrels gave higher velocity and the slower twist held the RPM down for best 800, 900 and1000 yard accuracy with M80 issue 7.62 NATO ammunition still required some years ago even after any rifle was authorized.

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

Duke, you asked where the Target/Palma version of the M70 went. They went away because people went with custom actions and Winchester wanted to stick with stuff they could sell more of.

Target shooters generally don't care about collectibility or tradition. Only one thing counts- putting holes where they belong. Custom actions do that more reliably.

[Just Duke]

So back to Winchesters from yesteryear.......

[Just Duke]

What the the muzzle end of a 28 inch barrel 300 H&H measure then?
What rate of twist just for curiosity sake would one go with for 200 grainers?

[Just Duke]

What the the muzzle end of a 28 inch barrel 300 H&H measure then?
What rate of twist just for curiosity sake would one go with for 200 grainers?

[Just Duke]

What diameter would the the muzzle end of a 28 inch barrel in 300 H&H measure then on the Winchester rifles?
What rate of twist just for curiosity sake would one go with for 200 grainers?

[Just Duke]

One more time for the guy that requested this post.

[rufgr]

Duke: The muzzle of my pre 64 model 70 300 H&H Bull Gun measures .857. Mine shoots best with 180 grain bullets and max. loads of IMR 4350. Oddly the best group I ever shot with this rifle was with Sierra 180grain round nose bullets.

[M-Tecs]

http://compete.nra.org/documents/pdf...R/hpr-book.pdf

3.3.1 U.S. Palma Rifle—
(a) A rifle with metallic sights chambered for the unmodified .308/7.62 or .223/5.56 NATO cartridge case.
(b)
Any service rifle with metallic sites chambered for the unmodified .308/7.62 NATO or .223/5.56 NATO cartridge case


http://www.6mmbr.com/palmabasics.html

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...are-permitted/

[pmer]

Duke, you asked where the Target/Palma version of the M70 went. They went away because people went with custom actions and Winchester wanted to stick with stuff they could sell more of.

Target shooters generally don't care about collectibility or tradition. Only one thing counts- putting holes where they belong. Custom actions do that more reliably.

When I was shooting High Power I had 2 push feed Winchester model 70s. They both had worked over stock triggers trued actions and custom chambers. One was over the course and the other was a F class. Accuracy was not an issue for either rifle.

So if I stop by a local match now days there will be more custom made actions than Winchester and Remingtons?

[Just Duke]

Duke: The muzzle of my pre 64 model 70 300 H&H Bull Gun measures .857. Mine shoots best with 180 grain bullets and max. loads of IMR 4350. Oddly the best group I ever shot with this rifle was with Sierra 180grain round nose bullets.

Thank you sir. That satisfies my curiously.

[rbuck351]

My 1952 made Win M70 in 300H&H is still putting meat in the freezer but it's just a std version not a NM gun.

[Larry Gibson]

We shouldn't confuse NRA match rifles with Palma match rifles. While the former are many times used in Palma matches the Palma rifle is distinctly different. Made to shoot the 800, 900 and 1000 yards of the Palma Match with issue 7.62 NATO ammunition the Palma rifle has a 27 to 30"+ barrel contoured to keep the rifle within weight. The barrel is longer to increase velocity so the 145 - 155 gr bullets stay sonic at 1000 yards. The barrel twists are 13 or 14" to keep the RPM lower for better accuracy with the issue ball bullets. Match aperture front and rear sights are used. Stocks are for prone unsupported with sling position.

Larry Gibson

[M-Tecs]

Larry

Palma rules get more confusing since the US Palma and the International Palma rules are different.

US Palma rules allow any weight bullets, NRA Match and Service Rifles with no weight restrictions.

International rules require a rifle with metallic sights chambered for the unmodified .308/7.62 NATO cartridge case with a minimum trigger weight of 1.5 kilograms (approximately 3 pounds, 5 ounces) and a total weight of the rifle including sights and forehand stop not to exceed 6.5 kilograms (approximately 14 pounds, 5 ounces) using 156 grain max bullets.

[Larry Gibson]

I understand the rules. The Palma Match is an international match and at least the International rules have adhered to the ammunition requirement. The U.S. and NRA rules are nothing more than allowing NRA match rifles to compete on the Palma course of fire, including the bastardized "mini" Palma matches shot at 300, 500 and 600 yards. The U.S. and NRA matches are nothing more than belly matches shooting 15 shot strings instead of 20. A true Palma bolt action 7.62 NATO match rifle is a different animal than a NRA Match rifle. Were it up to me I would have the Palm Matches go back to their roots when they were reinstated in the 1950s and require 7.62 NATO service rifles (of any NATO country circa 1956 through 1968 or so) with little to no modification external or internal. Ammunition should remain 7.62 NATO ball equivalent with a 145 - 155 gr FMJ. Let the gamesmen stay with NRA matches and F class matches and let Service rifle shooters compete with real service rifles in a match designed for them with marksmanship meaning more than the equipment. Remember originally the host nation provided the service rifles and the ammunition. That would be real Palma Matches. However, since that won't happen let us at least understand the difference between a real Palma bolt action rifle and a U.S. NRA match rifle.

Larry Gibson

[M-Tecs]

Some interesting history on the Palma matches

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com...lma-match.html

History of the Winchester Palma rifles.

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com...ma-rifles.html

History: US National Match Ammunition

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com...mmunition.html

[Larry Gibson]

It was here that the Palma bolt action rifle developed with the longer 27 - 30" contoured barrel to stay within weight limitations and to increase velocity. The twist was slowed down to keep the RPM as low as possible so the imperfectly balanced military ball bullets would have less deviation in cone of fire (group size). This is what is generally considered to be a "Palma Match" bolt action rifle. A NRA Match rifle with a 26" barrel and 12" twist is not competitive. Besides most NRA Match rifles have triggers lighter than 3 lbs and are most often heavier that 12 lbs. Thus let's not confuse an NRA Match bolt action rifle with a "Palma Match" bolt action rifle.

Were it up to me, like I said earlier, I would have it be an as issued service bolt rifle with comparable "issue" ball ammunition for the same from any country.

In 1985 the match rules required that each shooter be responsible for providing a rifle meeting the requirement of the target rifle as laid down by the host country. The rules of the National Rifle Association of Great Britain were generous and allowed for a bolt action rifle weighing as much as 12 pounds with a trigger pull slightly over three pounds. The rifle had to be chambered for the 7.62mm NATO round, our .308 Winchester cartridge. The match officials control this by allowing only ammunition issued on the line to be used in matches. The standard British service rifle ammunition at that time was L2A2 Military Ball. It is a cartridge that is similar to the United States issue M80 Ball and, like its American counterpart, not designed for target or long range use. All shooters are issued ammunition from the same lot to insure that conditions are as uniform as possible.

However, as to the original thread question; the 300 H&H was and is a fine cartridge but it has been supplanted for hunting by the "modern" .30 cal magnums. Most notably the .300 Winchester Magnum which also has supplanted the .300 H&H on the long range target field.

Larry Gibson

[woodbutcher]

Great thread.Love the linked articles.Thanks to all who contributed.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[pls1911]

Value is in the heart of the collector.
How much does a new custom rifle of the equivalent quality cost?
I'd think a bit more than $2500.
I admit new technology far exceeds the old line machinist's eye, but a whisper of wind or an experienced eye can close the gap.
An old school curmudgeon myself, I'd prefer the challenge, and honor the pedigree.

[Kirk A]

Thanks for posting the vintage advertising. I found this thread looking around for Bull content; I just acquired a 1955 Bull gun (re-chambered from .300H&H to .300Win). The collectors weren't keen on it, but it was just the recipe that I was seeking for some 1000yd shooting. As a life-long .270Win devotee, I will need to test some loads in this new caliber. (Suggestions are welcome.) My priorities include verifying the headspace, mounting some optics, and installing a target buttplate that offers increased LOP. All in all, I am delighted with this Bull gun. It is my first Marksman-stocked model, but certainly not the last.

-Kirk