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Thread: Loads for Destroyer Carbine

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold
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    Loads for Destroyer Carbine

    Gentlemen,

    I am currently looking to acquire a Destroyer Carbine. The closest range to me only allows pistols and Pistol Caliber Carbines, and I love to shoot rifles.

    While the search is going on, I would like to find some reloading data specifically for a long-barreled 9mm Largo. My assumption is that 2400 (which I have on hand) should do pretty well due to a slower burning rate. Theoretically that should give me higher velocities than using standard Largo or .38 Super loads meant for pistols. Shouldn't cause any pressure issues either.

    If anyone here has a Destroyer and had developed some loads for it, please share. Any and all information is welcome.

    Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    I've had a Destroyer for 18 - 20 years. I set the barrel back 1/2 thread so it headspaces on 38 Super cases. My chamber also has a bit of taper to it so I use a 9mm P die to partial size. I did not find 2400 to be a good powder at all with cast bullets. The best cast bullet load is with the Lee 356-120-TC over 3 gr of Bullseye or 3 gr of WST for 960 fps. With jacketed bullets of 90 - 125 gr in weight Unique and BlueDot have proven best. Sierra's 90 gr HC or the Winchester 125 gr HP at 1875 and 1707 fps resptively are pretty impressive.

    Larry Gibson

  3. #3
    Boolit Mold
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    Powders I have on hand now are 2400 and Bullseye. I think Bullseye is fine for a light load like yours, but I would like to get a decent velocity out of the Destroyer. Since Bullseye is so fast, I would be afraid to up the load enough to get above 1500 fps.

    Your jacketed loads sound nice. What are the charges for the respective bullet weights?

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    I am really close to finishing a .45 acp conversion on one. I would not have done this if I did not get the rifle for free. They are running 3-4 bills and if you need an extractor- good luck. I have yet to find a source for that one. The gentleman that gave me this one bought five of them YEARS ago. He turned one full thread and played with awhile, then it turned into 16" 45 suppressed thumper like the others. Ruger has that 44 mag bolt now that is tweeking me. Camps 9/45 are an option, but they are really stiff on the $ IMHO. Was the M1 carbine not designed as a pistol replacement, might win that arguement with the range higher beings. Good Luck. Gtek

  5. #5
    Boolit Mold
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    Man, you're really lucky. I would love to get one if not for free, at least below $300. Right now one gentleman offered me one for $350 with 2 mags, 36 rounds of surplus and 100 9x23 cases. I might take that deal. Unless I find someone else willing to sell me one cheaper. These carbines were like $99 just a few years back. I should have grabbed one them, damn it!

    What bothers me about these rifles is that shooting 9x23 Winchester will crack the receiver, according to reports. I don't get it. It's a bolt action with a strong lock-up and pretty thick receiver walls. How can a pistol round destroy a bolt action? Very strange.

    Tell me more about the conversion, please. I'm very curious. I also heard of 7.62x25 conversions as well. That would really be a dream gun!

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by batjka View Post
    Powders I have on hand now are 2400 and Bullseye. I think Bullseye is fine for a light load like yours, but I would like to get a decent velocity out of the Destroyer. Since Bullseye is so fast, I would be afraid to up the load enough to get above 1500 fps.

    Your jacketed loads sound nice. What are the charges for the respective bullet weights?
    Caveat: The loads are safe in my rifle using fireformed and basically NSed 38 Super +P cases. These FF/NS'd cases will not chamber in standard .38 Super chambers. I have no idea of the condition of the Destroyer you have or will get but consider it's quality seriously when/if you decide to work up to these loads.

    Start at the suggested starting load and work up carefully. Stop if you encounter a single psi indication. I am not recommending these loads as I have not pressure tested them. I approached loading this as if it was a wildcat using .38 Super +P data as a guide. With the 90 gr Sierra HC using Unique start at 5.5 gr and work up to 8 gr. That is 1875 fps out of my Destroyer. With the Winchester and Remington Bulk 125 gr .357 HPs usning Blue Dot start at 9 gr and work up to 10.4 gr. That is 1707 fps out of my Destroyer.

    The twist of my Destroyer's barrel is 18 - 19" and is fairly shallow so 150 gr or so cast work out ok. The 358477 over 4.5 gr Unique runs 1200 fps and if cast harder at 15+ BHN. The GC'd 358156 ate up too much case capacity for slower powders like Blue Dot to be of use. If one wanted to go to the expense a custom mould based on the Lyman 356637HP that was GC'd at 125 gr would be the ideal high performance cast bullet for the Destroyer. !600 - 1700 fps with that softer cast GC'd bullets would make for a real "destroyer".

    Larry Gibson
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 10-02-2012 at 01:29 PM.

  7. #7
    Boolit Mold
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    Larry,

    Thanks for your reply. These loads sound great. I can't wait to get my hands on the Destroyer and start loading and shooting. Great looking rifle, BTW.

    Quick question from a novice. If you were using data for .38 Super +P, would the factory .38 Super +P give similar results? Or is the powder in those rounds too fast?

    Thanks.

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master


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    I've not fired a single factory or milsurp round through my Destroyer. I just got the brass and have been reloading for it. No, the powders in the .38 Super +P ammo isn't to fast. Should get fairly close to at 1500 fps with factory ammo I suppose.

    Larry Gibson

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    You can buy the correct brass from Starline and not fuss with 38 Super. If Starline is out of it and waiting for sufficient orders before running a new batch try http://www.huntingtons.com/cases_starline.html who are good people and a business we might want to support because they provide many things hard to get elsewhere.

    Interesting rifle. Hope you continue to post your results.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master

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    Does this rifle have locking lug(s) or is the bolt base the locking lug?
    Amendments
    The Second there to protect the First!

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    Mine has both, there is a locking lug on the opposite side of the bolt handle.

    Larry Gibson

  12. #12
    Boolit Bub
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    I've had one of these rifles for years. Shot it regularly for a few years. All cast bullets. Mostly Lyman 356402 sized 356. 4.0 grs of W231. I tried Starline brass but it was too short at .900 for my chamber. Extractor wouldn't grip case. Found a good supply of new 9mm Win Mag which I trimmed to .910. That solved the extraction problem. My rifle must have a long chamber. Used 38 Super dies. Accurate, fun cast bullet plinking rifle.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    At some point the Finns used a 9X19 load specifically taylored for their rather long barreled SMGs that used a fairly slow burning powder that delivered the best velocity they could expect while not generating excessive chamber pressure that woul adversely affect function of the blow back action.
    The powder burned slowly enough that when supplies of 9mm Browning for use in their blowback service pistol chambered for that round dried up they found they could fire the SMG loads without damaging the pistol. An emergency use only situation of course.
    The SMG loads did not reach full pressure before the bullet left the shorter pistol barrel. Otherwise it would have broken the slide at best.

    I would think that for the Destroyer Carbines a load using either 4198 or 4227 would give best velocity at reasonable pressures.

    As for reports of some actions failing, other than the 9mm Browning most of the 9mm military and police class of pistol cartridges already generate some pretty high pressures, near as hot as stout .357 loads.
    The actions are plenty strong enough for the standard service loads in those chamberings, but may not have enough margin of safety for anything hotter.

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master


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    I would think that for the Destroyer Carbines a load using either 4198 or 4227 would give best velocity at reasonable pressures.

    Not enough case capacity to get enough of those powders in.

    Larry Gibson

  15. #15
    Boolit Mold
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    That's why I was thinking about using 2400. But it seems that even the most experienced Destroyer shooter here did not get good loads using this powder. Well, so much for theory...

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I have shot lots of Blue dot in the 9X19. This is about a step faster than 2400 so should work well for you.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    I would think that for the Destroyer Carbines a load using either 4198 or 4227 would give best velocity at reasonable pressures.

    Not enough case capacity to get enough of those powders in.

    Larry Gibson
    I've found data for .357 carbine loads using 4227.
    Have you tried 4227 in your Destroyer?

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Multigunner View Post
    I've found data for .357 carbine loads using 4227.
    Have you tried 4227 in your Destroyer?
    Yes, as I've mentioned the case capacity with the 9mm Brgman or .38 Super is very limiting. With heavy enough bullets to get the slower 4227 burning efficiently there is not enough case capacity left to get enough 4227 in it for any kind of top end velcocity. The .357 Magnum has considerably more case capacity. But even then I do not find 4227 to be the best powder with 90 - 125 gr bullets in the .357 Magnum because it is too slow burning and the case capacity is limited even with that cartridge.

    As leadman mentions, Blue Dot is probably the best powder for top end loads with 115 - 125 gr jacketed bullets in the smaller 9mm Bergman or .38 Super cartridge in the Destroyer Carbine. Unique works best with 88 - 100 gr jacketed bullets. Both give excellent loading density with perffect burning rates for the cartridge/bullet combinations.

    Larry GIbson

  19. #19
    Moderator Emeritus JeffinNZ's Avatar
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    Are the Destroyers still available? I think I would rather like one.
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  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Yes, as I've mentioned the case capacity with the 9mm Brgman or .38 Super is very limiting. With heavy enough bullets to get the slower 4227 burning efficiently there is not enough case capacity left to get enough 4227 in it for any kind of top end velcocity. The .357 Magnum has considerably more case capacity. But even then I do not find 4227 to be the best powder with 90 - 125 gr bullets in the .357 Magnum because it is too slow burning and the case capacity is limited even with that cartridge.

    As leadman mentions, Blue Dot is probably the best powder for top end loads with 115 - 125 gr jacketed bullets in the smaller 9mm Bergman or .38 Super cartridge in the Destroyer Carbine. Unique works best with 88 - 100 gr jacketed bullets. Both give excellent loading density with perffect burning rates for the cartridge/bullet combinations.

    Larry GIbson
    Thanks for setting me straight on this.
    I'd also found load data for some small capacity .22 centerfire cartridges that used 4227 and 4198. These would in general have longer barrels, though likely smaller bore capacity, than a Destroyer carbine.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check