THE 30-06 Boolit.. IMHO (longish gun tale)

[Char-Gar]

Around 1965 I picked up an 03A3 action for $7.50 and a Phiefer 1-14 barrel chambered for 30-06 in standard Springfield taper for another $5.00. I put the two together and had a nice barreld action. At the Houston Gun Show that year, I got a Fajen reject stock out of a barrel of 2nds. for $1.50. I put them all together for for $14.00 and a bunch of elbow grease, had a nice Springfield sporter.

I picked up a new long slide Lyman 48 at the Texas Gun Clinic for $24.00 and almost had a stroke. That was $10.00 more than I had in the rifle.

Said rifle sat in my closet unfired for 15 years. In 1980 I was living in El Paso and joined a gun club that had weekly cast bullet silhouette matches. Chicken at 50, pigs at 100, turkeys at 150 and rams at 200 meters. It was all off hand and only cast bullets allowed. It was then, I remembered the Springfield in the closet with the 1-14 barrel.

I got a copy of the then newish NRA Cast Bullet book by Harris. He was very big on the 311467U and 311334 for bullets in the 06. So I ordered both of those molds and it was 311467 that proved to be the ticket.

When cast from Linotype it ran .304 on the top band, .306 on the second band and .309 on all of the rest. I ran it though a .310 die to lube and crimp the gascheck. It had to be seated deep into the case to chamber.

I swaged a load of 20/4759 from the book and went to the range. It shoots as well as any 30-06 match ammo and I sighted in and shot at all of the ranges to get the elevation ajustments fixed in my head.

I was the only one not using a scope, but I did very well in the first two matches. That bullet and load knocked down the 200 meter rams with great authority, even with an edge hit. The others had all kinds of different loads and bullets for different ranges. That made no sense to me, I wanted a 200 meter ram load and used it for the 50 meter chickens, even if it was overkill.

Well after three shoots, the moved the matches to Sunday mornings and I was out. Sunday morning is a work day for us Preacher types. I always wondered if they did that get me out of the matches. I was knocking their chickens AH over appetite.

The rifle went back in the closet and some years later went by-by.

A couple of years back, I picked up another 311467 on Ebay and this one ran .302 on the top two bands and ..313 on the best. In the Krags and 06s, it proved to be the best bullet in the fleet. Those two top bands entered the barrel and acted like bore riding bands. Accuracy was outstanding in all rifles tried.

Some months back I ran across a box of about 500 of those lino 311467Us I cast 25 years ago. I sized those large top two bands to .3015 in a die Buckshot made and again the bullet was ran through a .310 die to lube and crimp the gas check.

In my NRA Sprter Springfield these bullets will shoot groups so small it is scary. The five shot groups look like one 45 cal hole with ragged edges. The Model 70 does just about as well.

There may be better bullets for the 30-06 but I don't know what they are. In all truth, I don't see how accuracy can get much better in sporter rifles. The brain guy at Lyman must have been on vaction, when they droped 311467 from their lineup.

I think these bullet are at their best when the first bands bore ride. Larger bands might be just fine for rifles with worn throats, but in my rifles the bore size bands do best. That is why I speced the top two bands on the original 311407 Mod. buy to .301 - .302.

Bottom line ... If there is a better cast bullet for the 30-06 than 311467, I wish somebody would break the code of silence and tell me.

[carpetman]

Chargar---They switched the matches to Sunday mornings and you had to work. Easy solution,you could of became a 7th day Adventist or whichever it is that worships on Saturday.

[Maven]

"Bottom line ... If there is a better cast bullet for the 30-06 than 311467, I wish somebody would break the code of silence and tell me."

Chargar, Were I to start anew with my '06, I think I too would choose #311467, mostly because Lyman's bore riders are undersized and thus, don't ride the bore. I've got a Hanned tapering die that will convert undersized bore riders (Lees & Lymans) to m.o.a. shooters, but it is an extra step. Then too, I've experimented with #311466 and was pleased enough with its accuracy to want to retest it.

With respect to a "better bullet," if you can find a Ly. #311644 (195gr. tapered bullet), circa 1992-1998 (These have 2 grooves on the nose/ogive for more lube.), try it. You won't be disappointed as it was designed for the standard .308Win./ .30-06 ball seat.

[sundog]

Maven, I believe you..., but. I have 311644 on loan from a pal, and so far have not found any magic with it. That's not say I won't. If I do I will sing praises. I tried the SAECO 301 several times until I hit on somehing. Now it will shoot 98s with Xs on demand on the SR21 at a hunert. Just gotta find the right combinations.

Chargar, when I finally retire for good, I'm going to run the mil bolt match a couple times a month at my club - on a WEEKDAY!!!

[Newtire]

There may be better bullets for the 30-06 but I don't know what they are. In all truth, I don't see how accuracy can get much better in sporter rifles.

Bottom line ... If there is a better cast bullet for the 30-06 than 311467, I wish somebody would break the code of silence and tell me.

Hey Chargar. I have that mold but never had the time to wring it out. Now ya got me interested! I have had great luck with the RCBS 165 gr. Silhouette.

[Char-Gar]

Newtire.. I have had good luck with RCBS 165 Sil as well. However, I have found 311467 to be better. it produced excellent accuracy with a wide variety of powders and velocities. It is less tempermental than the RCBS bullet.

[Bug]

I picked up a new long slide Lyman 48 at the Texas Gun Clinic for $24.00 and almost had a stroke. That was $10.00 more than I had in the rifle.

Chargar, you're showing your age!
I've spent many a (always too short!) while a Glen Slade's with my grandad. I was torn between looking at all the stuff downstairs - like paper barrels full of surplus rifles, and going upstairs. Often unescorted (they knew I knew better than to touch after the first few times), I'd lie on the floor and imagine I was the one bagging those trophies. Those bears were HUGE! Trying to remember, I think I liked the tiger best. I thought it would be just about the neatest pet a guy could have!
Thanks for the memory jog. Wish there were still places like that around.

[Char-Gar]

Glen Slade's Texas Gun Clinic was the wholesaler/jobber for just about every gun dealer in South and East Texas. They stocked anything and everything a gun nut could want. If it was made..Slade had it. I was going to Law School at the Univ. of Houston just a short distance away. Several of us used the Texas Gun Clinic as a hangout and meeting place. Ahhh. those were the days. There were several high quality gunsmiths in the area. I am talking 1964 to 1968.

I was also a member of the Bayou Rifles gun club. The range was the best I have ever seen outside of Camp Perry. Shot lots and lots of matches there.

When I wasn't going to school or shooting, I worked for Burns as an Investigator doing industrial security. The police didn't have the time or inclination to deal with industrial espionage, sabotage and theft, so we got the job. Many of the largest businesses were our clients. Best job and most fun for pay I ever had.

Lots and lots of good memories.

[felix]

Charger, my son Nick drives a 76 TA bought new in Houston at Leo Jarnigans Pontiac on the Katy Freeway. It was slamed into at Bayou Rifles gun club by a drinking shooter, not having looked in his rearview mirror. I did not know who or about what time. That was the only time that car had been scratched by anything. ... felix

[Buckshot]

I don't see how accuracy can get much better in sporter rifles. The brain guy at Lyman must have been on vaction, when they droped 311467 from their lineup.

Bottom line ... If there is a better cast bullet for the 30-06 than 311467, I wish somebody would break the code of silence and tell me.

..............Well, it's cousin the 311407 ain't no slouch either. Just gotta love those Loverins

The shotgunners who own the board of directors at our range have realized that maybe the rifle-pistol range is actually worthy of a bit of attention. The board okay'd sponsering a SASS Cowboy shoot once a month. Several months ago they also auhtorized a bunch of guys to start a 22 Benchrest match once a month.

Recently there have been 2 other deals cooking. One is for a 200 meter 'Buffalo' type cast boolit shoot, and a reduced range hi-power rifle competition. The silhuette club has been struggling for the past several years. Twenty years ago they had regionals at the club but now it's down to maybe 10-12 shooters.

Part of the problem is that all these things naturally occur on the weekend and that is when the range is at it's busiest. It is no stretch to have people waiting to shoot, as every bench has at least one shooter and sometimes 2. Plus the pistol line will be packed.

Most of the proifit for the club comes from the rifle-pistol range. The shotgunners have more dollars flow through, but the clay pigeons, machine maintainence and operators eats a big hole in it. The rifle-pistol range basicly just have target boards to replace after much usage.

................Buckshot

[Marlin Junky]

Loverins, Loverins, Loverins... what does one do if they are just starting out with the '06? Sit in front of ebay and wait for some old fart who's circling the drain to give up casting?

MJ


P.S. Here's another cheery thought ... I've purchased three new Lyman molds within the last couple years and they've all been ****. More specifically, the vent lines are barely scratched on, the alignment pins worked their way out far enough to prevent the blocks from closing properly and the sprue holes don't line up with the cavity centers. As far as I'm concerned, there are now two ferrous mold manufacturers.

[Maven]

MJ, As I indicated in my response to Chargar (several years ago), Loverin designs are easy to shoot well (but maybe ot so easy to cast), but I'm not wedded to them. Bore riders work just as well, if their noses and bodies fit your gun. Indeed, yesterday I was shooting a CBE 180gr. FP bore rider v. a Saeco #315 (tapered Loverin, FP) and got better results from the former. Btw, as to your post about the Lee 160gr. bore rider, let me say that I had the 180gr. version of it and wasn't very accurate in my '06 because it was too small in both body (.309") and nose (.300" if one is generous) dimensions. (My Lyman #311291 suffers from the same problem.) However, as undersized as the Lee CB was, it fitted my K-31's perfectly and was an impressive performer in them.

[frank505]

I remember Glen Slades. What a place to visit as small boy!

[Marlin Junky]

Maven,

Yeah, I'm really not interested in the c309-180 because of the long nose but the 160 (I suppose technically it's a bore rider too) has a nose that's pretty short and probably doesn't need to be supported because more than half (IIRC) of c309-160's overall length is bearing surface. I know 309-160 shoots well in my '06... at least with the powders/BHN values tried so far at up to 1860 fps.

Regarding the SAECO 315, I'm concerned about my current tools' ability to seat a tapered boolit without excessive run-out. Perhaps that long trailing band was designed to prevent mis-alignment in the case neck but it's not worth the gamble right now with money being really tight at this point.

If an old Lyman 311407 comes my way, I'll be all over that like a duck on a june bug; however, that's about as likely as seeing the Northern Lights from Miami.

MJ

[Larry Gibson]

Charger

Using the 311467 in the '06 is always an excellent choice. However there is one other ingredient in your combination that is also worth mentioning; the 1-14" twist. You have slowed the RPM way down and it doesn't surprise me in the least that the rifle is that accurate. It would be interesting to see what the 311467 over a stout charge of AA4350, H4831SC, RL19 or RL22 would do both velocity and accuracy wise. The 311466 Lovern gives the same accuracy as you describe at 1800 - 1900 fps out of my 1-14" twist .308W. At 2600+ fps it is averaging around 1.5 moa for 10 shot groups out to 300 yards. Have you tried any of the 311466s in your 14" twist '06? They wouldn't have to be seated deep and should just fill the case neck and throat.

Larry Gibson

[NVcurmudgeon]

Chargar, now you have done it! You have awakened a sleeping dragon who is a fanatic on one load and one Springfield. I tinkered with C. E. Harris' load of 16.0 gr. 2400 a lot between 2003 and 2006. First I used the Ohaus 30-190S, a 190 gr. borerider semi-spitzer cast of ACWW sized .3107". the barrel is a Genuine, honest to Townsend Whelen NRA Sporter Springfield, one of fewer than 5,000. The barrel, dated 2-30, slugs .3086" X .300" and is in excellent condition. This is the heavy star-gauged barrel, with 1922 Springfield stock as original. Sights are Lyman 48, 1/2 MOA click, rear, and issue Springfield .050" wide front. With the Ohaus bullet 2" groups at 100 yd. were almost always the rule. As with most of us, I asked my self, "how good is this rifle?" Weighing bullets so that all were in the central part of the bell curve, and each group taken from a group of bullets with 0.5% weight spread, helped a lot, if only by eliminating ALMOST all fliers. I moved the powder charge up and down, finding nothing better than Harris' original 16.0 gr. Just for comparison I tried Lyman 314299 200 gr. sized the same .3107" and found it a little better. By this time improvements came in very small increments. For instance, once the 314299 became the new standard, segregating castings from the two cavities and orienting bullets and cases, together reduced group size about 1/5 MOA. A comparison of standard and magnum primers of both CCI and Winchester brands indicated magnums of either brand are slightly better. The reason I am using terminology like "about" and "slightly" is because it is unlikely I have shot enough groups to be a valid statistical sample. However, I can say that of 93 groups fired with the winner between several sets of two variations, and the same 314299 bullet, has led me to believe that now the Springfield can be counted on for 1.75 MOA at 50 and 100 yd. weather and shooter having a good day permitting. There was a lot more shooting going on than this post mentions. Loverin's 311467 got a trial too. It was very good, but not the best. Another Loverin, 311466, also was tried. and now holds the title of best bullet in my .30 Rem. and my nemesis and stepson Jaremy's .30/30. And that's why we keep trying different stuff.

[Jack Stanley]

[QUOTE=Marlin Junky;1062307]Loverins, Loverins, Loverins... what does one do if they are just starting out with the '06? Sit in front of ebay and wait for some old fart who's circling the drain to give up casting?

MJ


Marlin Junky , If it hadn't been for you pulling this article from circling the drain it likely would have swirled into cyberspace and I'd have missed it . Thanks for the rescue , it's little short stories like this that I really enjoy reading . The elements of the story for some reason remind me of authors like "Skeeter" Skeelton and Jim Carmichael . They really give the imagination and memory a charge for those so inclined to such things .

Charger , I'm sure they moved the match to sunday just to give ya the boot , you was getting hard on them chickens!! When I shot high power I never did the two day national match course because I just couldn't fit church and my relay into the same day . Thanks for the short story , I really enjoyed it .

Jack

[Char-Gar]

Just when you thought a thread is dead, somebody pull it back from the edge. Here is an update on some of my thinking on bullet designs.

Loverin - I still think they are the berries. With the first band or two sized to ride the bore, they have always done the job for me. In a rifle with a long worn throat, it might not be of any advantage to size the top bands.

These multi-band designs cast better when a high antimony alloy is used. Antimony contracts when hot and expands when it cools, and help fill out the mold. I like Linotype but also have had good luck with good old Lyman #2.

Bore Riders - These will shoot just as well, but fit of the nose to the lands is critical for top performance. Once you get a good fit, they will shoot like a house-a-fire.

Ideal/Barlow - These old designs like 311291 and 311284 have survived over a hundred years for good reason. They work and work well. I attribute this to the nose to body ratio of about 50/50. Even if the nose is not a perfect fit, there is enough body length to keep the nose from slumping.

The most accurate load I have found for the 30-06 is 50/WC872/1 cc PSB/Remington 9.5. This load is accurate with just about any quality 30 caliber bullets and is a good load to determine which bullet works best in any given rifles.

One day, I loaded up a bunch of rounds with this load and topped with 311334, 311467, 311466, 311291, 311284, and RCBS 165 Sil. The rifle was my good 4 groove Remington 03A3 in full military dress. I fired two consecutive 10 shoot groups with each bullets. The groups ran from .75 to 1.10 inches at 50 yards. Five shot groups would of course have been smaller. This translated in to 1.5 MOA to 2.2 MOA accuracy all of which would be first rate from a rack grade military rifle.

The largest group was 311334. It had a nose of .299 and the land diameter, was .3015.

The two Barlow designs 311291 and 311285) had noses of .302 and gave groups that average .95.

The RCBS had a nose of .3015. The two Loverin designs and the RCBS gave groups of .75 for the average of the two. There was nothing to choose between these bullets.

I will let the readers draw their own conclusions from these stats. At the end of the day, the world is full of good 30 caliber bullet designs. Any of the good designs will deliver top rate accuracy, if the fit to the throat, lands and grooves is correct. Of course there is the alloy etc. etc. etc.

Guy Loverin developed some good bullet designs, but they were just an evolution of the old multi-band Schutzen bullets used by Pope, Schoyen and many others.

There are no miracle bullets and there is no mystery about 30-06 (and .308, 30-30, 30-40) cast bullet accuracy. That path has been beaten smooth by generations of shooters. If a shooter can't get good cast bullet accuracy out of these rifle, he just has not been paying attention or thinks he must reinvent the wheel.

[Char-Gar]

NV.. I think you are correct about Springfield 03/03A3 accuracy. On a good day you might good 1.5 MOA accuracy and on a not so good day, that will open up to 2 MOA or a smidge more. That is also what you can expect from good jacketed bullet loads.

This is real world, day in and day out accuracy. A fellow must take the internet sub MOA groups with a gain of salt. Without exception they are five shot groups, usually with the "flyer" thrown out. Some times they are even 3 or 4 shot groups. They are one group shot on one day. I am talking sporter or military rifles here. Bench rest or target rifles are a different breed of cat.

I was mentored in riflecraft buy a group of geezers who had beaten the road to Camp Perry smooth before WWII. Waving one bragging target at them, impressed them not. It didn't take long for me to stop doing that as it was just the mark of greenhorn.

[1Shirt]

Charger, seems to me that there are a whole lot of wheel reinventors in the gun world.
Have to agree with you on just about every thing you have written here. There is no perfect blt, cast or jacketed, but I guess there are a whole bunch of us who will keep looking for the grail. Great thread.
1Shirt!