Teeth rattling slug load

[Pieter C. Voss]

Today I went to the range to try some loads with the Lyman 525g slug. I had selected a load from the Lyman shotshell manual (4th ed.) which called for 44g of SR 4756. The first shot had me thinking maybe I had double charged--but no, if I had done that surely my 870 would have some real damage. The hull seemed just fine so I tried two more shots--a nice cloverleaf at 50 yds but I had NO desire to shoot any more. I have a Knoxx recoil-absorbing stock on the gun so it wasn't that my shoulder was taking a beating, but the sheer shock and concussion was too much for me. I was taken aback because the first time I had loaded this slug--a few weeks ago I had used a load that called for 23g of Unique--I think I actually cut back to 21g for that load--and it wasn't bad at all. Now I've got to cut open about 15 shells to reclaim the components. Also, on these loads, which utilized Federal GM hulls, the 8-pt crimp had partially opened up on most of them. I used the proper wad--what gives? Is is possible that the 44g SR4756 is a mistake? I also loaded some buckshot loads with that same powder (but haven't tried them yet). That recipe from the same manual called for only 27g of SR4756 with 27 pellets of #4 buck. I loaded another 25 shells with a load listed on the same page of the manual as the 44g SR4756 load--it calls for 36g of Universal Clays with the 525g slug. Haven't tried it yet either. Does this sound like a teeth rattling load too? Any help would be appreciated, and also any recommendations for fairly mild slug loads.

[Ole]

18.5 grains of green dot + the Lee 1oz slug kicks less than factory 1 1/8 oz field loads from my gun.

I didn't make these, but I trust the guy that did and he says he used the WW pink wad.

[UNIQUEDOT]

the 8-pt crimp had partially opened up on most of them. I used the proper wad--what gives? Is is possible that the 44g SR4756 is a mistake?

You can sometimes remedy this problem by using more wad pressure and adjusting the plunger in your final crimp die. If the crimp depth is not adjustable on your machine you would have to adjust the load to solve the problem...that is if you wanted to continue using it. There are many published loads that just don't fit the hulls properly and this is simply one of those loads.

[nfg]

Recoil is a measured of the total ejecta mass...that includes the weights of the slug, powder, ANY wads, the velocity of that ejecta weight and the rifle weight. Increase the ejecta weight and the velocity...More powder and probably more velocity in your case... and you increase the felt recoil.

Increase the rifle weight and you DECREASE the recoil. Felt recoil is subjective to the person also even with the Knoxx system and also a certain "learning" process of just HOW to handle recoil or just plain shooting a lot of heavy recoiling guns will make it tolerable over time.

I have lots of large cal, heavy recoiling rifles all weighing ~10-15 lbs...my 8.5lb 870 just knocks the tar out of me with the same loads that I hardly notice out of my 11-15 lb H&R USH's. The stock shape or drop or something just doesn't fit me. I added a 1/4" foam pad on the comb just to keep it from busting my cheek bone and raising more knots.

I'm working on some 625-750 gr 20 ga loads in my 11lb H&R that calculate from ~65 to over 100 ftlbs of recoil. I've learned to lean into the gun, get a tight hold and concentrate on the sights. A muzzle break DOES help also.

With the Knoxx system you don't have too many places to add weight, but I think I would find some nook or cranny I could epoxy in some lead shot to help.

Basically, you're talking about a 73 caliber rifle and a large piece of lead at a fair velocity so you will get slapped around some.

You can reduce the amount of recoil by reducing the powder weight and which will also. probably reduce the velocity, so checkout your reloading sources to find those reductions...of course you also reduce the effectiveness of the slug by reducing it's energy, but that 525 gr slug does upset and expand nicely so you don't need too much speed to handle most animals hunted at/with shotguns and their normal hunting ranges.

Uniquedot said it all in his last sentance...that happens in ALL reloading platforms.

Good luck

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Good morning Pieter C. Voss,
STOP ! ! !. You wrote " it calls for 36g of Universal Clays with the 525g slug. "
Some thing wrong here with the printing or an error in your typing!

It could be 25 to 26 gr for a hot load!
Better safe than sorry.
Ajay
Video Memories
VdoMemorie's-Blazing Sabots
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[nfg]

VDO is right....Depending on the case brand and length, 2 3/4 ro 3" and construction, wad etc., those loads are slightly to a few grains OVER my Lyman 4th Ed recommended loads...Best to start low and work up. The 870 is a stout action but you don't want to push it.

[squirrelnuttz]

Lyman 4th edition pg. 380 525 gr. Lyman slug load with
Fed. GM hull,
W209 primer
Waa12R wad
SR4756 39.0gr. Max!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not trying to be a jerk, but ya gotta read the manual, I triple check the load against the book.This explains your crimp issue at 5 grains over MAX.And the ferocious recoil.These type of mishaps are way too common.I'm an idiot.That's why I triple check data when I'm loading.It's pretty easy to be on the wrong page in the manual, be on data for a different hull or even the wrong gauge. Cause anyone can make mistakes like that, and those are easy ones to catch with just a little self check.

I use a load with either AA hulls or Federal plastic hunting cases (paper basewad)
with SR4756, but 5% reduced, which is better in the recoil department.Still stout, but I am sure it is way better than the tooth rattling loads you are talking about.Also Blue Dot with the Fed. Plastic hunting cases.Seriously dude- you just got lucky in that you are unscathed.

[nfg]

Good thing you two, VDO and Squirrelnuttz, have your heads screwed on straight and your eyes open!!!!!!!!!!

I don't use shotgun powders much and only check the manuals when I'm actually working with a specific shot load/case, plus I don't use internet data at all, so those numbers didn't register as being excessive at all, I just assumed recoil sensitivity...totally my bad...I should have checked.

Things/happenings like this are always excellent "wake-up" calls for ALL of us.

It's not so much the strength of the steel in the barrel as it is the very small locking bolt areas of MOST pump and semi's.

I've miked and roughly calculated the minimum strengths in the wall thicknesses at the chamber and muzzle of several barrels for my 870 and Mossy's and have no problem with the strenghth, WITHIN REASON...BUT...all you need to do is look at the bolts and the bolt recesses and attendent mechanical linkages and/or see what happens when one comes apart, to make a believer out of "START LOW AND WORK UP SLOW"...my favorite mantra.

One problem is WHERE did the reloading data for Pieter's load come from...data in reloading manuals changes constantly and you all know that EVERY reloading manual has DIFFERENT data for the same caliber, so what is shown to be safe in one manual is WAY out of whack in another...just check the Sierra and Hornady manuals for rifles.

It still points up the fact that vigilance and checking thrice PLUS using more than one source should be De Rigueur ALL the time.

[UNIQUEDOT]

Guys you prompted me to get out my Lyman 4th edition and as the op stated.

LYMAN 4TH EDITION SHOTSHELL RELOADING HANDBOOK PAGE 286.
FEDERAL GOLD MEDAL HULL
LYMAN 525 GRN. SABOT SLUG
SR 4756 44.0 GRS.
WIN 209 PRIMER
WAA12R WAD
1585 FPS
10,500 PSI

This may have very well been a misprint or it may have something to do with the fact that the aa12r wad is no longer made and the claybuster clone may have something to do with it as clones are sometimes longer or shorter than an OEM. I would contact Lyman and find out what the discrepancy is.



BTW:

Lyman 4th edition pg. 380 525 gr. Lyman slug load with
Fed. GM hull,
W209 primer
Waa12R wad
SR4756 39.0gr. Max!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is the velocity and pressure listed in your printing?

[Pieter C. Voss]

nfg & squirrelnuttz--thanks for the replies, but I DID follow the manual--my manual which is a 4th ed. Lyman. Mine doesn't have 380 pages--the highest it goes is to page 372, but on page 286 the loads clearly call for loads of 36g Univ. Clays and 44g of SR4756. Something very wrong here. I'm going to call Lyman and get to the bottom of it. Probably if I had more experience with shotshells I might have recognized (on paper) that these were very hot loads. All my thirty years of reloading experience is with rifle and pistol.

[Pieter C. Voss]

Just talked to someone at Lyman. I guess I have to get the newer manual. The loads I used--36g Univ. Clays and 44g SR4756 have since been changed to 29g and 39g, respectively.

[Pieter C. Voss]

nfg & squirrelnuttz--thanks for the replies, but I DID follow the manual--my manual which is a 4th ed. Lyman. Mine doesn't have 380 pages--the highest it goes is to page 372, but on page 286 the loads clearly call for loads of 36g Univ. Clays and 44g of SR4756. Something very wrong here. I'm going to call Lyman and get to the bottom of it. Probably if I had more experience with shotshells I might have recognized (on paper) that these were very hot loads. All my thirty years of reloading experience is with rifle and pistol.

[UNIQUEDOT]

Just talked to someone at Lyman. I guess I have to get the newer manual. The loads I used--36g Univ. Clays and 44g SR4756 have since been changed to 29g and 39g, respectively.

What was the reason? Was it pressure spiking or fitment issues etc.? Please share more info on the conversation.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Pieter, once again, who ever told you at Lyman 29 gr of Iniv. Clays is safe, still sounds
like a unsafe load!
Trust, but verify for your own safety!
Ajay
Video Memories
VdoMemorie's-Blazing Sabots
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[nfg]

My 4th Ed was the 3rd printing, 2000...Ya'll might check YOUR printing and date...that may have something to do with the variation...Each printing will have updates most likely and a small blurb somewhere in the fine printing to that effect.

Something new learned about this...EVERY PRINTING HAS CHANGES in probably EVERY reloading manual...I never thought about this particular conundrum.

[Pieter C. Voss]

A bit more on what Lyman told me--they said that because of powder changes over the years they have to make changes in their load recommendations. Uh-huh.

[Four-Sixty]

I wonder if the ranking of SR4756 (on the powder burn rate tables) changed place much between the two manuals. That could credit, or discredit, Lyman's claim.

[UNIQUEDOT]

Hello Pieter, once again, who ever told you at Lyman 29 gr of Iniv. Clays is safe, still sounds
like a unsafe load!
Trust, but verify for your own safety!
Ajay

Ajay, when i first bought the 4th ed. and was looking for data for the 525 lyman i thought the 36 grn listed charge for universal sounded excessive so i loaded them with 33.0 grains and have shot many with that load with no sign of over pressure, but i don't use universal anymore and likely wont purchase anymore when i finally do use what i have left. The gold medal hulls are pretty high capacity straight walled hulls, but if they have dropped the suggested charge down to 29 grains i definitely won't use up the rest of my universal loading them at 33.0 anymore.

My 4th Ed was the 3rd printing, 2000...Ya'll might check YOUR printing and date.

Mine was the first printing...bought it when it first came out and in fact in the steel shot section they had printed some info without permission and they just stuck a large sticker over the info printed with an explanation of why it was there.

A bit more on what Lyman told me--they said that because of powder changes over the years they have to make changes in their load recommendations. Uh-huh.

I have received this same explanation from powder companies themselves over the years so i wouldn't discredit their (Lyman's) explanation.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Just another reason to start with the start load if one is given.

Peiter C. When testing loads are you sitting at a bench leaning forward onto the bench?
You might try raising the weapon rest up higher so you can sit upright in a natural shooting position. When I am testing heavy thumpers I sit behind cross sticks. With a bit of practice you can shoot near as well as when using a bench but not get your bell rung with every shot. I weight 155 and my thin little body needs all the help it can get for heavy recoil.
Mike in Peru

[Four-Sixty]

I find that overeating and thus keeping my mass up has made me less sensitive to recoil than you "thin" guys. That's my approach...