Warning: Classic Arms 20" Saigas in 7.62x39

[Danderdude]

Well, I just got bent over a barrel. I've done business with http://www.classicfirearms.co/ and they were great people until now.

I called the owner on 03 May to ask if the the Saiga 7.62x39 20" (IZ-131) they had happened to have stepped chambers. The Russian government requires this for civilian rifles, to help identify the weapon used during a crime from the small swell it leaves in the case neck. While the brass can be reloaded a few times, sizing eventually takes its toll and case ruptures happen.


The dealer pulled one and inspected it for me, and said the chamber step was definitely not there. The rifle arrived today and wouldn't you know it, the step certainly is there. Needless to say, I am not a happy camper. For all the C&R business I've done with them, I didn't expect to be lied to.

Caveat emptor, ladies and gentlemen. I'd like to trade this one for another NIB without the problem chamber but finding a dealer who would be willing to do that seems improbable at best.

And to top it off, this is my very first brand new gun. I hope none of my brothers here get burned the same way I did. Learn from my mistakes.

[Hang Fire]

Maybe he didn't lie, but simply did not see it.

But if I called the owner and he personally said it wasn't there. Me, he would have some splaining to do, and if I was ticked enough, he would be requested to pay for return shipping and my $ bac.

[beex215]

you should try talking to them. they should take care of it.

[Danderdude]

you should try talking to them. they should take care of it.

I tried. The bossman wasn't in today. Will try again tomorrow.

he would be requested to pay for return shipping and my $ bac.

Their terms and conditions state flat-out you never get return postage paid for.
I'd much rather find a local(ish) dealer to do a fair trade with, but yeah, they will hear a polite, but stern, earful tomorrow.

Maybe he didn't lie, but simply did not see it.

And yeah, I'm the kind to give a guy the benefit of the doubt, but if he wasn't sure, or had bad eyes, he should have said something to that effect. Waiting 5 hours to look at the thing after my initial call is plenty of time to get some good peepers on target.
I even emailed him high-def pictures of what a chamber step is and isn't. There was no doubt in his demeanor or voice.

[Buckshot]

..............They've done you right until now. Gotta give'em the benefit of the doubt first. It will be interesting to hear what they tell you. Personally I do not see how they could refuse to pay return shipping, sending you something you did not want. Order 'X' and get 'Y', who's fault is that? Since you don't work in their shipping dept that narrows the field of responsibility wonderfully.

..............Buckshot

[darkroommike]

One other thing, is the rifle you received the rifle the owner inspected or one that the shipping dept. pulled off the shelf to fulfill your order? Something to expand on when you contact the owner.

[JeffHolt]

I'v bought some C&R stuff from them also and have always been satisfied with my purchases. What peeves me is their attitude when calling in an order. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like they'd rather being doing something else than helping you with your order. I glady pay the extra sawbuck (sometimes 2) to get what I want. You'd think they could at least suck it up long enough to act like you're not bothereing them! (too much)

[Love Life]

If they won't work with you, what are you looking at for a selling price? PM me if interested.

[Danderdude]

Good news, for a change.

I got a hold of Rick at Classic Arms and explained the situation. He hemmed and hawwed for a while, and offered to pay return shipping and give a refund minus a restocking fee of 15% and original shipping. Unhappy with this development, I made him this offer:

Refund me half of your profit margin. I worked for a dealer for a while and know exactly what these are bringing wholesale. I stated so and we agreed. I call it an amicable trade-off and he agreed that it was "more than reasonable," his words. I don't hold any ill-will toward Classic and their prices and selection on C&R guns are usually pretty good. Don't let the awful website design drive you away.

On the flip side, I called the local 200%-markup-on-EVERYTHING, $32/lb-for-Unique gun shop this morning and they had one Saiga in stock. I explained the situation and offered him trade + $20 for a 16" (which I really wanted) 7.62x39, which he accepted. I wasn't expecting him to do that for me, but I guess I came off pitiable enough. Considering the variation in lot-to-lot Saiga's, I'm happy with my purchase, even if I had to pay more than I originally intended.

So, I now have exactly what I wanted in the first place:
16", 7.62x39, dimpled receiver to reduce mag slack, no threads on the barrel, and she locks up tight. Fit is pretty darned good for an AK.

All in all, I think it's kinda funny that my very first brand new gun I owned for roughly 20 hours. I will NEVER shoot a steel-cased or steel-jacketed bullet through her. The bore on this utilitarian beauty will stay pristine for a long time. Now I just need to slug it and convert it.

[excess650]

$32/# Unique???

I bought an 8# jug of 2400 for $106 a couple of days ago!

Well, at least you got what you were looking for. I contemplated a Saiga 308, but decided against it. I'll be curious to se ehow your 7.62x39 works.

[Danderdude]

$32/# Unique???

If/When I go in there again, I'll snap some cell phone photos for yall to laugh at.

I'll be curious to se ehow your 7.62x39 works.

Do stay tuned. I will be documenting the process from day one and work up several loads. Dies and brass have been ordered from Grafs. I'll also be converting it to a pistol grip configuration, moving the trigger group forward, installing a part that will allow the use of high-cap mags and prettying up the foregrip. Long term plans include free-floating and making a new rear sight.

The inspection booklet from the factory said the group from the 4 factory test fires was 76mm at 100m, but that's nothing but a function check and you just know they're using cheap surplus.

[beex215]

restocking fee is a slap to my face if they screwed the order up.

[excess650]

76mm is roughly 3", but I suspect you knew that.

Are your plans for cast? That would be the inexpensive way to go, particularly since you can make the 150gr+ work at full throttle in that case.

I have both of the Lee 7.62x39 designs C-312-155-2R and TL-312-160-2R. They are very different. My expectation was that just the shank would be different, but the TL version has a longer, fatter ogive as well.

[finishman2000]

classic aren't the sharpest tools in the shed. i ordered 5 saiga's and they forgot to send one. then they charged me shipping on the one. i said either credit the shipping on the one or i will dispute the charge and they will lose. they did credit my card

[sh00ter787]

Just to throw in my 2c, I have 2 saiga's, one a 16" and one a 12". The 16 has a step in the chamber, the 12 does not.
I can understand how a stepped one would appear to be a hindrance, but I can honestly say in the 3 years I have shot them I have never thrown a case away because of a problem with this step. It always gets resized, and I have not had one single split on this point.

[Danderdude]

sh00ter787,

And yeah, I've heard both sides of that in equal proportion. One guy will never have an issue and the next will say his brass lasts 3 loads. I don't want to chance it. The one I traded for has the standard chamber and I'm happy with that, even if it cost a few bucks more.

excess650,

The 20" rifle's inspection book said it shot 112mm. I say this is a step in the right direction.
What I found odd is that the barrel and receiver were proofed in 2009, but the test fire didn't happen until Thanksgiving Day 2011.

I plan on only using cast in this rifle, because:
-It is cheaper
-It is better
-It can be used to the full potential of the case
-To dispel some of the myths about using cast in gas-op rifles
-Cheap Russian ammo not only has steel cases, but the bullets are steel-jacketed

[HARRYMPOPE]

I have a Saiga 308 20" and have shot about 2000 cast though it and its a gem.It will shoot under 2 MOA to 200 yards.I believe the 308 is a far better cast gun in the Saiga than the 7.62 x39.Mags are expensive but how many do you need?

Just my 2 cents

George

[Danderdude]

HARRYMPOPE,

I don't care for .223/5.56 due to a narrow range of acceptable bullet weights, there is nobody making brass 5.45x39, and the Ruskies have had a LONG time to refine the AK-47 and AKM for 7.62x39.

If I buy another, it will be a 20" in .308. A dream of mine is to rebarrel one to .45-70 one day.

Also, mags for 7.62x39 are $5 a piece.
http://www.slimstacticalguns.com/Tap...K_p_26181.html

[Lance Boyle]

restocking fee is a slap to my face if they screwed the order up.

yep, that was my first thought. You went to extra trouble to talk with them to not get a certain specific feature and then they ship you that unwanted certain feature?

They did not treat you right as it was their mistake assuming you're account is accurate. They did not make you whole in legal parlance.

Glad you did alright on the local trade though.

[DarthTater]

Classic Arms is a funny place. They've been hit or miss with me. For the most part, I haven't ever received anything anywhere approaching on time and they don't seem to have any contingency plans for when things go wrong. If they've got something that I can't get anywhere else, I'll give them a whirl, but that hasn't happened for some time.

I will say that with the new owners or managers or whatever changed, my last two orders arrived in something approaching a much more reasonable time.