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Thread: Lee Factory Crimp vs. Redding Profile die?

  1. #41
    Boolit Master
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    Just looked at Hand loader Magazine talkes about the same thing. ) Your brass is worked hardened. That is why it doesn't spring back.

    Your a machinist. Why when you have a unsupported rod in a lathe do you do a cut and then two "air cuts" afterwards? Unsupported metal will move away and as you do the second. and third cuts at the same setting it takes progressively less metal off. I'm done arguing with you. Pretty much everyone who has a open mind knows I am right. Even a independent poster got the.same results I said he would get.

    I would get some new brass.
    Last edited by Colorado4wheel; 05-12-2012 at 05:39 PM.

  2. #42
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    Now think about this 4WD,, my brass is "workhardened" so it doesn't spring back?

    Which issue of Handloader and what article states this?

    So softer brass springs back? But harder brass doesn't?

    You need to think this stuff thru a little more, I just know you're gonna get it right pretty soon. You just need to open your mind.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  3. #43
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    Handloader magazine was the one where the review the dual carbide ring Redding die. They talk about spring back in the article briefly. Can't be more then a year or so old. But my machinist friend owns it. But like I said before. I am not going to argue about it.

  4. #44
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    All metals will "spring back" when deformed. The first part of deformation is called "elastic"
    and if you ONLY deform the item in the elastic range it will spring back 100%. A great
    example is a - - - - wait for it - - - SPRING. Properly designed springs are always operating
    in the elastic range.

    When you want to permanently deform something (like size a case smaller) you have to
    go through and past the elastic range, into the plastic range. Only the plastic portion of the
    deformation is permanent - and when unloaded, the permanent (plastic) part of the deformation
    will stay and the elastic part springs back.

    ALL metals work this way - although some extremely brittle ones have almost
    no plastic range and just snap after a tiny bit of plastic at the end of the elastic part. Some
    metals (like lead) have a very small elastic range, and go plastic very early, so the springback
    is very small - but it is there.

    Bill
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  5. #45
    Boolit Master
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    I posted a link that said the same thing BUT you said it more clearly. Thanks.

  6. #46
    Boolit Grand Master

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    You're welcome. One of the reasons I spent 6+ yrs in engineering school is so that
    I could understand how things really work. I hope that sometimes I can clearly
    pass on some factual info that will help others figure something out.

    Bill
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  7. #47
    Boolit Master
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    The truth scared Buchanan away.

  8. #48
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    4WD: I can't make my cases springback, sorry. You obvoiusly have powers that I don't.

    Send me one or two of your cases with what you think they measure, along with your size die and what you think it measures.

    I will get back to you with what they really measure.

    It measures to ten millionths! Now that's the truth!

    Be waiting for that package. Time to put up!

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 06-02-2012 at 06:02 PM.
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  9. #49
    Boolit Master 1bluehorse's Avatar
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    Well now wait a minute. I certainly don't have any metalurgy background but there has to be somthing going on with brass when sizing. If the inside dia of the sizing die (mine) is .4675 and you run a piece of brass into it that measures O.D. .475 before sizing, then upon exit from the die it still measures .470 where the heck did the other .0025 go?? If there's no "spring" wouldn't it measure .4675?

  10. #50
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    4WD: I can't make my cases springback, sorry. You obvoiusly have powers that I don't.

    Send me one or two of your cases with what you think they measure, along with your size die and what you think it measures.

    I will get back to you with what they really measure.

    It measures to ten millionths! Now that's the truth!

    Be waiting for that package. Time to put up!

    Randy
    LoL, I am going to send you my stuff. That's hilarious, I don't trust you that much. Send me $40 and I will send you my property.

    I don't know what is wrong with your brass. Why don't you measure it like this.

    1) Before sizing
    2) After firing
    3) After sizing

    One time you said it wouldn't go back in the die and now you say it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    Of course You can't push a bullet or a case into a sizing die by hand,,, there is zero clearance!

    The ID of the die is the same as the OD of the case or boolit. Think about it.

    Randy
    If it's the same size it would be a perfect fit and go right in. If it takes extra pressure then the case is bigger then the die but the case is compressing as it goes into the die. That is the spring back we all speak of. This just isn't that complicated.

  11. #51
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1bluehorse View Post
    Well now wait a minute. I certainly don't have any metalurgy background but there has to be somthing going on with brass when sizing. If the inside dia of the sizing die (mine) is .4675 and you run a piece of brass into it that measures O.D. .475 before sizing, then upon exit from the die it still measures .470 where the heck did the other .0025 go?? If there's no "spring" wouldn't it measure .4675?
    Your the only one that man'd up and did this rather simple test. I wish others would simply size a case and try to push it back in the sizer. It won't go in by hand (unless your really pushing hard). You can feel the case deforming as it does.

  12. #52
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    Son let me tell you something, and you really need to get your head around this. Either your measuring tools suck or your measuring technique sucks.

    I offered to measure your stuff for you on a machine that is so close it defys description. You LOL.

    If there was all this springback you talk of, it would happen to every set of reloading dies there is and it just doesn't. There are literally thousands of dies that would have to have been independently engineered with your springback included. Why is it that you and a few othrs are the only ones who have thought they have seen them. When people started making reloading dies they didn't even have micrometers! How did they compensate for springback?

    You act like you are the authority on reloading metalurgy when you can't even understand my posts.

    I guess I'll try to show you in pictures.

    Here is two randomly selected cases measured before and after sizing and then shown pushed back into the sizing die with thumb pressure. Also note the ID measurement of the sizing dies which are exactly the same as the sized cases. There is no springback.

    .44 Magnum: Case OD before sizing .454,,, ID of sizing die .449,,, OD of sized case .449,,, pic of case pushed into sizing die with other case to so you how far it is pushed in by thumb pressure alone. There is no springback!

    .40 S&W: ID of FL sizing die .416,,, OD of case push thru sized with Lee FCD .421, OD of FL sized case .416, pic of case shoved back in die. There is no springback.

    NOW if you don't believe this you are surely beyond repair.

    I will comment no further on this subject and if you don't believe my pictures are the truth or in some way staged to make you wrong,,, You are getting very close to offfending me.:takinWiz: You!

    I have forgotten more about prescision measurement than you will ever know, and I still remember most of what I have forgotten too.

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 06-02-2012 at 06:02 PM.
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  13. #53
    Boolit Master
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    What your missing is that every person I talk to and all my experience say the same thing.

    After sizing the case will not go back into the sizer. Don't need a fancy tool to figure out the obvious.

  14. #54
    Boolit Master
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    I think we are done till someone else decides to join in. Have you tried bending a coat hanger. Spring back appears in every metal. I am stunned you can't see the obvious.

    Does that case in the bottom picture go in and out of the case all the way. I would love to see a video of that. I may do just that tommorow.

  15. #55
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    When you order bushing dies
    they tell you to measure your neck and subtract .002 to allow for spring back.
    Just sayin.
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  16. #56
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    4WD I am stunned you don't know the difference between steel and the softest brass known to man.

    As far as a fancy tools, my calipers are no more fancy than yours, I just know how to get accurate measurements out of them. I do it for a living and you work on race cars. Dial Calipers are not a Crescent wrench.

    I was also concerned when you said your cases were not round after coming out of the die, even if they sprangback they would still be as round as the die is, and normally dies are pretty round. Do you rotate the case while you are keeping pressure on the caliper jaws? You should be.

    As far as the cases going all the way back in the die,, (and I knew you would say this,), Not with just thumb pressure, simply because of "friction", you have heard of that haven't you? And the fact that the case is the same size as the die. NOTE: the measurements? Same size?

    The fact that it is in the hole at all disproves your springback theory, because if it was even .0002 bigger it wouldn't go back in the die at all. A + gage pin will not go into an "on size" hole. It's too big by .0002. Also there was no lube of any kind on those cases, they were completely dry. Run that part of the video in your mind, I'm sure you can make it work.

    Look,,, I didn't have to stage this, that whole post took me 15 minutes to do including taking the pics and doing all of the measurements, that's how easy it is to prove.

    I even showed you two completely different calibers/cases/dies that did exactly the same thing, Zero Springback, and yet you cling to coat hangers as the defining example of springback. Dude, nobody reloads coat hangers or even makes brass coat hangers, clothes would fall off of them because the metal is too soft.

    I don't dispute that some metals spring back, I've been doing fab work for 40 years, I'm just telling you that cartridge brass that has not been workhardened severly does not spring back any appreciable amount. And by appreciable (read these numbers carefully to avoid cornfusion) I mean your .002-.003. .0003 maybe sometimes in rare cases, but at .003 something else is wrong.

    If my brass and your brass do different things how could any one make dies we both could use? The only variable here is "your" measurements, which I might add you have not spoken of a whole lot by you.

    Graywolf: when you measure your case neck you are measuring a fired case! if you didn't order a smaller size bushing you wouldn't be sizing the case at all, now would you? Just sayin'

    You guys obviously don't believe my pictures and you won't send me your brass so I can measure it and show you where you're going wrong, so this discussion is over. Now we're just Pissin for height''

    Now if you want to post a video of you measuring your brass and showing your technique I would be happy to review it and point out all of your mistakes. You're so willing to call me crazy and yet you haven't proven or shown us anything except some literature references you don't understand, and talked about how much a steel pipe springs back. None of that has anything to do with what we're actually talking about. it ain't brass.

    We need to see your stuff in action.. This discussion all comes down to "here's mine, where's your's?"

    So where is your's?

    My sincere apologies to Racingsnake for completely Hijacking his thread, I hope you got the info you were looking for before this BS happened.

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 05-19-2012 at 06:50 PM.
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  17. #57
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    Hi,
    Randy,I've got tears in my eyes I'm laugh'in so hard!!! You crack me up and educate me at the same time!

    Gentlemen, you ARE messing with the wrong dude!!!!
    “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace.
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  18. #58
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    W.R.Buchanan, First off I'm not asking this question just to stir the pot. I'm asking because i guess i just don't understand. If there is no spring back in the brass then why is springback mentioned in so many loading manuals? i do understand that brass and iron or steel are entirely different metals that can't be compared as an example if you heat steel red hot and drop it into water it bunches up the atoms so close together that there can be no springback before the metal will break and that is why it has to be tempered so as to relieve the stress by spreading the atoms out, but if you heat brass cherry red and drop it into a bucket of cold water it actually becomes softer.
    I also know that i have run across new brass cases before that were so soft that they were not useable...what I'm getting at is that i don't understand the properties of brass, but i thought that if a brass case was properly manufactured at the proper hardness that it exhibited some springback. About all i know is that it's an alloy of zinc and copper.

  19. #59
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    Uniquedot: first I must ask you what manual mentions case springback and I need the Manual name and page # where it states this information.

    The reason why I insist on this exact reference is because several people on this thread have stated that they read this in a manual or Handloader Magazine. Or "so many manuals state this."

    Yet when I look at the articles mentioned there is NOTHING IN THESE REFERENCES WHATSOEVER that says or even implys that this problem exists. It's like somone is not understanding what they read.

    I have Lyman 45, 49, Hodgdons #23, Speer #9, Hornaday # 2 and Lymans Full (large) and abreviated (small) Cast Boolit handbooks, as well as numerous pamphlet style load books, and none of them mention anything like brass cartridge springback. And just to make sure I am not FOS I just spent 2 hours going thru each one of the above mentioned manuals looking for any reference to anything remotely referenceing case spring back. I came up with ZIP!

    Next: altering the grain structure of steel is completely different than what happens to a non ferrous metal like brass. You are correct when you say if you heat brass to cherry red and quench it it goes dead soft. This was done several times as the case was being manufactured because every forming operation work hardened the material to some degree. the more they try to move the metal in one operation the more severe the workhardening. I might add that the steps in the manufacturing processes of a cartridge case are considerably more vicious than simple resizing for reloading which is only moving the diameter of the case a few thousandths of an inch.

    Example: my .44 mag cases measured .454 after firing and before sizing. After running them thru a die which measures .449 the cases measure .449 IE no springback. These cases are being squeezed a total of .005" If they were springing back coming from that .449 die in the amounts mentioned by 4WD (.002-.003) that would be a 50% springback! and they would measure .452!

    Steel doesn't even springback 50%,,, So these numbers are BS.

    If the die was .446 to allow for the .003 springback that would still be 35% springback from the original movement. Soft Steel won't do 35% either.

    If you are bending a 90 degree bend in a piece of steel tubing you would have to bend it past 120 degrees to yeild a 90 degree bend. You've got to know that this is not right. +5 degrees maybe will yeild your true 90 degrees,,,, IN steel!

    Yes brass is much softer and it's resistance to movement is a minute fraction of what it takes to form steel.

    With brass you can cut that back to 1-2% which is NOTHING. Figure out what 1-2% of a .005 forming operation would be, and I assure you, you can't measure it!

    When you go to the range there will invariably be .223 brass laying on the ground. All of those ones with the discolored necks have been annealed after the last forming operation. However they were ONLY annealed down to the top of the shoulder of the case and the rest was left slightly harder. This was done so that the case would seal a variety of chamber lengths easily, and also so the mouth could be reformed easily, and you have got to know that the softer anything is, the less it will resist movement.

    The difference in the relative hardness of the annealed portion of the case versus the un-annealed lower portion is not that much either. It might only be a difference of 10-15 BNH.

    Here's the bottom line. If brass was so resistant to forming how could they make cases out of it in the first place. The whole reason they use it in the first place is that it is easy to form and it holds it's shape well after the operations, and it forms to the chamber walls to seal in the gasses.

    If you had to chase springback on every one of the 5-10 forming operations you would be nuts! This is exactly why they anneal the brass several times thruout the forming operations, so it holds it's shape.

    Resizing a case neck down .005 is NOTHING in comparison to the original forming operations, and can be done many times before serious workhardening takes place. The case will probably split the neck or separate above the web long before this happens.

    I have .308 cases I have loaded 10-15 times and they are still going strong. With light loads most of them will go indefinately. There is no need to go back and anneal these cases necks as they are only being sized a few thousandths of and inch each time. Since they only have about .002 grip on the bullets if they were springing back .002-.003 the bullets would fall in. You know they don't.

    Also if you anneal a rifle case all the way down to the base it is ruined. It takes about 4 seconds for a propane torch to get a case hot enough to anneal properly. If you leave it on longer it just anneals further down the case. If you leave it on too long it anneals the whole case and it is now scrap.

    Lots of unsubstiated claims being made on this thread with no written back up for reference. On a technical forum this can become a serious problem quickly..

    Have you heard you can't shoot cast boolits in Glocks? Plenty of people actually still believe this myth because someone said they read it somewhere.

    Same thing.

    Hope this answers some of your questions.

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 05-20-2012 at 12:19 AM.
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  20. #60
    Boolit Master gew98's Avatar
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    Back in the 1980's the only place to get crimp dies was C&H Tool out of Mt Vernon Ohio. They made excellent taper crimp dies - of which I still have all of them today. While I like RCBS dies the Lee crimp dies are the best bet for the money , and I've got no shortage of them on hand.
    If you are not trimming your cases uniformly a crimp die will cause you alot of headaches until you get your head out of your backside on trimming properly. I have had new and long time reloaders that when they got into crimping they went the way of using the factory seating dies...and man did that not work ( of which I warned them every time that was a wasted approach ). I crimp everything I load from 32ACP to 45/70 no exceptions.
    No , I did not read that in a manual or stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.... it's just the facts Ma'am.

    What's the difference between a pig and an Engineer ?
    You can argue with the Pig.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check