Recipes for "Mouse Fart" Loads in 30-06

[kaptain kartridge]

I shoot rifles on an indoor 50' range. My pet load is 6.0grs Unique, or Red Dot powder. 30-06 150gr cast .309, .303Brit 150gr cast .311, 35Rem 150gr cast .358, 7.62x54R 150gr cast .311, all loads are between 800-1000fps same load for .45-70 405gr cast, 30-40Krag 150gr .309. The only change is 7.62x39mm I use 3.0grs powder

[Outpost75]

+1 on everything that Larry said. This is exactly what I was taught by Col. E.H. Harrison and Frank Marshall, Jr., who worked with Col. Harrison as a Sgt. at Aberdeen Proving Ground in the early post WW2 era.

A light charge of Bullseye was standard for shooting test rounds in the transonic range for spark photography. The minimum charge for an APM2 bullet to exit the barrel is 6 grains in the '06. With soft, lubricated lead bullets such as #3118 or #308252 you can cut that in half.

However, the admonition NOT to attempt this with jacketed bullets cannot be emphasized strongly enough, as you risk lodging a bullet in the barrel, due to increased bore drag, combined with gas leakage around the bullet. When we had to shoot conventional bullets at low velocity for modelling drag we did so in a lightly oiled barrel, or at real ranges firing backwards into the transonic aerodynamic range at night capturing the rounds in plunging fire at 800-1000 yards, downloading them to simulate indirect fire ranges. Most of the artillery models simulating 120mm rounds were miniaturized and the electronics put into scale model 40mm, later 20mm rounds. Used 4895 in 20mm downloadings, similarly to how you would use Bullseye in a .30 cal. about 200 grains!

Jack

That load data was available 100+ years ago. Was loaded with a M1906 bullet and was known as a "Guard" load. If you read many of the old writers they used around 6 gr in the 30-30 under a 311291 or similar PB"d cast bullet or 6.5 - 7.5 gr in the '06 for use as a "foraging" or practice load. Whelen had a load he used in the M1903 with the 311008 loaded with a Ideal tong tool that was very similar.

As to a "rule of thumb" having shot lots of such in rifles over the years I've found that lighter weight pistol bullets most often shoot more accurately at 800 - 950 fps with such loads. Thus I use 2.7 gr Bullseye in cases from 7.62x39 to 300 Savage in capacity with 90 - 118 gr PB'd pistol bullets. I use 3.2 gr Bullseye in .308W to '06 capacity cases with the same bullets. Those 2 loads have always worked in any .30 or .31 cal rifle. In .35 call rifles I've found that 120 - 160 gr pistol bullets also are the most accurate in the 800 - 950 fps range. I use 4 - 6.5 gr with those in the .35 Rem, .358W and 35 Whelens. Case that show that speckled crack around the web expansion ring signaling incipient case head seperation that haven't actually seperated yet are great to use with these loads. There is no real psi and these cases get a new lease on life and last practically forever with these 2.7 - 3.2 gr Bullseye loads under a 90 gr SWC or even the HBWCs sold by Hornady and Speer.

With low end loads rifle cast bullets I've found they shoot very accurately if cast soft and PB'd or GC'd at 1050 - 1200 fps, most often right around 1150 fps. I use Bullsey with those also using 6 - 8 gr depending on what it takes to get into that velocity range. Above 1200 fps Unique most often works better.

I also use light weight PB'd cast bullets in the 8x57, the .375 H&H and the 45-70. I use 6.5 gr+ depending on what is also needed to get the bullets to 1050 - 1200 fps. I do use 4 gr Bullseye in the 375 H&H with a 375 RB lightly lubed with LLA for 900 fps and a very deadly small game load to 50-75 yards.

I also have used 200 gr .30 and 8mm very soft cast bullets loaded down to 300 fps with success although it takes about 500 fps to get to 50 yards with the ladder milsurp sights. Using 1.5 to 2.7 gr bullseye gets you to those low end "cat's sneeze" velocities. Bullets must be cast of pure lead or 40-1 or they may stick in the barrel. A ight coat of LLA is all that's need for lube. Also if a rimless case is used you might consider well fire formed cases with the flash holes drilled (#30 - 28) to avoid the shortening of the cases headspace.

Larry Gibson

[ravelode]

My current 30-06 grouse load is a 311291 with GC on top of 8 grains of titegroup.

[typz2slo]

Has anyone used WSF for cast loads in a a 30-30? I have looked thru lots of forums and haven't found one. The reason being is that it won't work. I may have to just use my WSF for 9 and 40 and my tightly and red dot for the 30-30.

[selmerfan]

Well, I'm trying my hand at this, but with a .260 Rem with 1-8" twist and a 130 gr. RNGC boolit. I didn't have enough daylight to check accuracy, but I learned enough to know that 1 gr. Bullseye will drive the boolit a couple of inches into the bore, while 1.5 gr. Bullseye sends it out with a .22LRish report from my 17"MGM Encore barrel. I initially loaded up 2.5 gr. and 3.0 gr Bullseye, hoping they would be subdued, but I drove out into the country and touched a 2.5 gr. load off and it was definitely in the .22LR, maybe .22 RF Mag range in report. I'll hold off and check accuracy when I have daylight and it's not subzero outside....but zero recoil on the pistol, which is always fun!

[BrassFinger]

I just got into CB's for rifles, having picked up a very nice '71 hollow-bolt M77 in .30-06. I "needed" it to be able to put a nice collection of reloading equipment given to me to good use. Included were some 31141 130gr. and some 311041 173gr., both sized to .309. Unfortunately, while I have the 450 lubesizer, the molds and size dies are AWOL, which is the reason for this post.

This past weekend I took it to the range for the first time and put the following loads downrange: 130gr. with 7gr. Bullseye, 130gr. with 9gr. PB, and 173gr. with 15.5, 16 and 17gr. 2400. 10 pcs. were loaded for each combo, total of 50. The 130gr. loads shot well, grouping ~1.25" at 50 yds., but the 173gr. were tack drivers, with 20 rounds going into a hole a bit over 1" diameter at 50yds. I was just using a small sandbag at the front and not taking any particular care in my technique, so I certainly can't complain! Scope is the original Redfield 4x that's likely been on it since new.

When I loaded these up, I fiddled around with chambering a dummy round with bullet seated way out to see where it ended up, but ultimately decided to seat the boolits just until the grease grooves were covered, which was deeper than the dummy round seatings. Last night I tried another method I read here using my brass cleaning rod to measure the difference in distance to the bolt face to the tip of a lightly seated boolit in the throat. These measurements compared to the COAL of what I loaded were quite a bit longer (3.295 vs. 3.080 for the 311041 and 3.290 vs. 3.068 for the 31141).

I have read where for optimum accuracy with cast, the boolit should be seated to where it just touches the rifling. With the 311041, I can do that but it would leave at least the top lube groove exposed, maybe more. With the 33141, I don't know if there would be enough of it left in the neck to be useful. Since I need to buy a mold(s) to keep shooting cast once I run through this small stock, it appears I should look for a design over 170gr. for length and one that has a fat nose section to engage the rifling while maintaining a "decent" seating depth.

I'm partial to RCBS molds, and have been leaning towards the 180-SP or 165-SIL. However, I would like to consider a non-GC boolit for plinking duty like the 150-CM since sending gas checks downrange with <10gr. behind them is a waste. Either way, my choice is from whichever mold design maximizes the amount of boolit diameter seated outside of the case that can engage the rifling while having all of the lube grooves inside the neck. Suggestions? Having lube grooves outside the case only bothers me from an aesthetics point of view, but I'd rather not have a softer lube formula exposed to be smeared or melted everywhere.

-Chris

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

brassfinger , it depends what your looking for , if 50 yard bunny thunmpers is what your going for you can use the little 90gr lee tl314-90swc sized .311 seated all the way into the case ans crimped in the first tumble lube groove I tried longer but don't think at 25 or 50 yards the target can tell at these slow speeds or for a decent hunting load and fun farther distance practice load the c309-170rf but if you really want to get the nose out into the rifling the c309-200r2 will get you engraving on the nose easily in most 30-06 chambers

you can do mouse fart , or reduces loads with all of them

one of my favorite reduced loads with the 30-30 is 6.3 gr power pistol under the 309-170 with no gas check , it groups an inch to an inch and a half at 50 with iron sights and i can ring the 100 yard plate as many times as i want it is fun, clean ,low recoil and cheap

and the brass lasts and lasts

I run all three , the 309-200 is to long for 30-30 but the 309-170 is perfect for the 30-30 , the 314-90 works in most all 30 and 31 cal rifles depending how you size it


my only wish is that I could get all of these molds in a 6 cavity , and have the gc turned off 3 of the 309-170 cavities , but i am probably to cheap for a custom mold like that at least for now I will keep whacking the 2 cavity molds with the block of wood to open them

[BrassFinger]

Thanks for the info, GCPete. I pulled the trigger this week on the RCBS 165-SIL mold, .309 sizer die and some copper gaschecks from Sage's. I figure I can try loads without GC for plinking with 6 - 7 gr. of Red Dot, BE or PB. I have a group of brass that I'll be drilling out the flash holes for dedicated light load duty.

Also ordered some BAC lube from LsStuff after spending the other evening digging out some ancient solidified Lyman "Ideal" lube from my 450 sizer. That was the gummiest, nastiest cr*p I've had the pleasure of dealing with. I have a tube and a half of it yet (in the plastic tubes, so it's not THAT old) but no way I'm using it. Yuck. This the lube on all the 130gr. 31141 boolits I have, and while it's still soft, I can't see how it lubricates. It is akin to a cross between chewing gum and road tar. Maybe I should just melt them all down and turn them into 165-SIL boolits!

Chris

[Hooker53]

Before I start loading for this type of low presure 06 loads, is it possible to load this low and an auto action work?

[charlie b]

When you get really low, then no. Your semi-auto turns into a slide action. Not that big a deal when you have this much fun

[spotsboss]

...so much to shoot, so many rocks, pine cones and cow pies that need killin'.......

Larry Gibson

You too? Ha! If you have access to a wooded area, map out a trail and set up some targets along it (balloons, plastic bottles filled with water, etc). Go on a "hunt". For the most fun, take your grandson or granddaughter along. You take the target on the right, she'll take the left...

Bill

[Outpost75]

Bullseye will work better than unique. With Unique many time you have to get the bullet at to high a velocity for it to ignite and burn efficiently. Bullseye ignites well and burns efficiently at a much lower psi. -- Larry Gibson

Larry is correct. This site has good reduced load data for .30-'06 and other calibers:

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

The data there don't go below 5 grains of Bullseye for 878 fps with a 170-grain LFN bullet in the '06, but I have gotten good results with Accurate 31-114D down to 4 grains of Bullseye, and with the lighter .32 ACP cast bullets or single-0 buck you can go down to 3 grains of Bullseye. Use standard large rifle primers, no filler required.

With heavier bullets such as Accurate 31-134D I get best results with 6 grains.

[LuckyDog]

Anyone have any good Brat recipes? Have some new grinding and stuffing toys. Will be making more burger and sausage, but would like to do some brats.

Do you mean Brauts?

I don't think that is what they meant when talking about mouse farts here.

[trixter]

Larry Gibson:

Do you size the Lee TL 314-90-SWC, for shooting in the 30-06 (A3-03); if so what sizer do you use? Just wondering if you size it down too far won't it squash most of the micro lube grooves? If it does, is it a problem?

[Hamish]

Do you mean Brauts?

I don't think that is what they meant when talking about mouse farts here.

"Brauts"?

Braut means fiance, I hope you're not making brats out of your Brauts,,,,,,,

(Languages are funny things, put it with "wurst" and you've got "fried meat", but by itself, it means fiance. Go figure.)

[just1man]

Larry is correct. This site has good reduced load data for .30-'06 and other calibers:

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

The data there don't go below 5 grains of Bullseye for 878 fps with a 170-grain LFN bullet in the '06, but I have gotten good results with Accurate 31-114D down to 4 grains of Bullseye, and with the lighter .32 ACP cast bullets or single-0 buck you can go down to 3 grains of Bullseye. Use standard large rifle primers, no filler required.

With heavier bullets such as Accurate 31-134D I get best results with 6 grains.

Great site! Thank you for posting the link.

Would there be much load variation for 308 vs 06? You mention no fillers required. Does this hold true no matter the barrel position (shooting downhill for example)? You mention large primers, do you also drill the flash hole larger for these loads?

Sorry for the slew of questions! Planning to do some loading this weekend and would like to do it as "right" as possible.
Thank you

[crashguy]

I have this posted in the Military rifle forum too.. but ..I got such a kick out of these i wanted to share.

For me it was 8 g of BE under a Lee 312-155- 2R (range scrap GC , PC and sized .309 at 162g) in a M1903 (circa 1934 with an original and beat up 4 groove barrel) Rang in at 1250 fps avg SD 6 with a group under 2in at 50 yards of a rest w/ battle sight POA=POI. Not a flake of PC showed in the bore in 20 rounds.
Just for a kick I loaded some Lee 314-90-swc (range scrap, PC, sized .309 at 94g) over 3.5 of BE for 960 avg . Sub 2in at 50 off rest Battle Sight POA=POI.... boy oh boy did they look ridiculous stuffed into that 30-06 case... but ... I will tell you this ..I giggled when they went off.

[Houlton]

I used 22gr 2400 under a 173 gas check flat nose. Very accurate. Put fiberfill to fill the case. Someone made the comment on another thread that it looks like you are shooting a chicken. Look under the thread '06 I started earlier. Gentleman recommended 8.5 of WST and posted some very impressive targets to show why he liked WST.

[cosmoline one]

Anyone using 700x w/these loads? I've had good success w/30-30 155-170 PB bullets. I'm just starting in 7.62x54r & 7.62x39

[Jack Stanley]

I used some 700-X in the 30 WCF a long time ago but haven't tried it in the aught six as of yet . I don't see why it wouldn't work pretty well I use it for reduced in other rounds and it does well .

Jack