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Thread: 25 cal nail gun blanks for Steven's SS

  1. #1
    Boolit Master

    Marvin S's Avatar
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    25 cal nail gun blanks for Steven's SS

    Anyone know the outside dia of these blanks or maybe they have fired them in a 25 rimfire rifle? I have a chance to buy a rifle with a perfect bore but wanted to see if this is an option or not. Thanks.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    I can't answer your question but I sure would like to know myself, I have been told it will work and I have been told it's too risky don't do it!

  3. #3
    Boolit Master


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    The nail gun blanks are much too hot for use with either a bullet or boolit. You would be treading in dangerous territory if used for any thing but a bang.

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    Boolit Master
    Mk42gunner's Avatar
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    I have seen them advertised as ".27 cal" whether they are or not is anybodies guess.

    After seeing how far into concrete they will drive a nail, after going through a treated 2x4; I have to agree with DLCTEX, I wouldn't do it without more info than the old my cousin's wife's brother's uncle's bookie says it will work.

    Robert

  5. #5
    Boolit Master

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    I have some that have a paper plug in the end instead of a crimp so what I was thinking of was dumping the powder and replacing it with a known variety? These things fit the 25 chamber in my old rifle but I have been hesitant to try this.



    Marvin, my apologies for highjacking your thread but I hope the info is what we are both looking for.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master

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    Ok thanks, if I end up with it I'll look at making my own cases with the offset primer.

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    Boolit Master
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    I've used the RWS Sinoxid 6.8 mm blanks in a Stevens Buckhorn bolt action rifle with .257 caliber round balls. The shells fit the chamber and the ball exits the barrel with no signs of excessive pressure. Accuracy is such that it will hit my hat every time if I hang it over the end of the barrel. I haven't tried the American .27 caliber versions as I'm still trying to figure out what those power level colors mean.

    I haven't tried these blanks in anything more fragile, like a Stevens Favorite, nor have I tried using "real" cylindro-conical boolits with the blanks. I do not recommend others doing any of this. However, I do appeal to the ammunition companies to resume manufacture of the .25 Stevens in order to keep me from putting myself "at risk."

  8. #8
    Boolit Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DLCTEX View Post
    The nail gun blanks are much too hot for use with either a bullet or boolit. You would be treading in dangerous territory if used for any thing but a bang.
    Right. The reason that powder-actuated driver cartridges are made in sizes that do not fit firearms is exactly that - the power level is such that it would damage and even blow up some guns. You only have to spend a day driving studs into concrete with one to appreciate that. (I did, last summer.) Even though the driver gun weighs 6 or 7 pounds, the recoil is best described as "stout". On par with a 9mm pistol, if that means anything.
    So long, and thanks for all the fish.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    I've used blanks that appeared to be 7mm diameter in a homemade pengun I made many years ago, using a split shot fishing line weight of the same diameter as a boolit.
    Those had plenty of power, the projectile penetrating several planks with power to spare, and the pen gun held together with no sign of undue stress.
    This was a much stronger than average pen gun though, I put some work into it.

    Of course this was all done on a Ugandan flagged private yatch in international waters and the statute of limitations ran out long ago, just in case anyone asks.

    Not sure of the nominal size of those blanks, I found a partial plastic strip of them near a construction site.

    In Mexico they made rimfire rifles that propelled projectiles using nail gun blanks to get around laws against .22 rimfire rifles. Not sure if these were .22 bore or .177 bore.
    With Mexico being flooded with guns these days I don't know if these are still necessary.

    Theres a chamber adapter made for .32 rimfire guns, these use a .22 rimfire blank in an offset chamber to drive a buckshot.

    In Britain gangs used to convert Brocock precharged pneumatic air guns , which used a pumped up air cartridge that looked like a real cartridge, to hold a 8mm theatrical blank in the removable air cartridge to be struck by the valve stem, to drive a slug at lethal velocities.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    The .25 nail gun shots were too small for my .25 Stevens RF, must need to use .27 or some such.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    Right. The reason that powder-actuated driver cartridges are made in sizes that do not fit firearms is exactly that - the power level is such that it would damage and even blow up some guns. You only have to spend a day driving studs into concrete with one to appreciate that. (I did, last summer.) Even though the driver gun weighs 6 or 7 pounds, the recoil is best described as "stout". On par with a 9mm pistol, if that means anything.
    The 7mm blanks I found were very short with a star crimped end, not much longer than the rim was wide. These also had a very thick rim, though the metal seems to have been either thin or soft. I would expect this sort of blank comes in different lengths and power levels for differing applications.
    I have seen blanks that were fairly long, and stepped in diameter, with the case mouth closed by a laquered disc. Are these the type your gun used?

    Years ago they were trying to market a magnum .25 auto cartridge. The pistols made for this round were just modified .25 ACP blowback pocket pistols. The case was somewhat longer than the standard .25 ACP.
    Perhaps a centerfire conversion could be worked up to put a .25 rimfire back in action.

    I looked up the .25 rimfire and found case mouth diameter listed as .276.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master

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    the hilti 27 cal in the green load and a No 3 buck shot will shoot fine in a 25cal stevens . Take a light tuff of cotton and put in chamber and drop a No 3 shot and the green load it will do good enough to get squirrels at 40yds
    If you want to make up a bunch use a small drop of gorilla glue and set the shot on top of the power load till it dries . The yellow or red is too hot but will put a pellet through a 4x4
    as a note some of the stevens extractors are loose so make sure the load goes on top and not under as you close the gun . I know

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Heres what I found on .25 Stevens dimensions
    Bullet diameter .251"
    Neck dia .276"
    Base dia .276"
    Rim dia .333"
    Case length 1.125"
    Cartridge OAL 1.395"

  14. #14
    Boolit Master

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    Thanks for all the great info guy's I have that Lee oversize 25 ACP TL mold I thought of using.

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    Boolit Master
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    It just occured to me that using blanks in this manner is somewhat similar to the method used with false muzzle breech loaders back in Harry Pope's day.
    They loaded the bullet from the muzzle till it contacted a cartridge case shaped stop in the chamber, but used a cartridge case loaded at the breech with powder and an over the charge wad as the propelling charge.
    They loaded from the muzzle so the bullet would be centered without cant and fully engraved before it started its journey, and also there would be no lead flash at the base of the bullet.
    There was no throat as such, origin of rifling being directly in front of the case mouth.

  16. #16
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    The following is copied from a post on another Forum and thread:
    Blanks have been used both in Europe and through Dixie Gun Works here to act as 'primers' in machined brass cartridges with offset chambers so the blank rim is positioned to be fired by the original RF firing pin. They are intended to be filled with Powder and have a bullet seated in them, the European ones use a heeled round nosed or semi-pointed nosed bullet and Dixie says theirs work with Round balls also.

    Industrial Powder tool loads come in a range of power ratings from 1, the weakest, to 12, the strongest. They also come in two types of closures, Star crimped and roll crimp over a seal wad. I would think the Star crimped ones would work similar to the Olden Times Bench Rest shooters technique of loading a bullet then inserting a Cartridge with a wad crimped in the mouth, to get the bullet exactly positioned where they thought they would get maximum accuracy. The roll crimped ones could also be used but I would worry about wad residue left in the bore for the next round to find.
    Wikipedia provides this list:
    "Color-coding for the "rounds" or "single shots" (the three shot strengths or colors typically sold to the general public are brown, green and yellow in brass):

    In brass casing:
    Color-coding (Velocity)
    (1)- Grey 315 ft/s (96 m/s)
    (2)- Brown 385 ft/s (117 m/s)
    (3)- Green 490 ft/s (150 m/s)
    (4)- Yellow 575 ft/s (175 m/s)
    (5)- Red 675 ft/s (206 m/s)
    (6)- Purple 755 ft/s (230 m/s)

    In nickel (silver) casings:
    (7)- Grey 845 ft/s (258 m/s)
    (8)- Brown 935 ft/s (285 m/s)
    (9)- Green 1,025 ft/s (312 m/s)
    (10)- Yellow 1,115 ft/s (340 m/s)
    (11)- Red 1,205 ft/s (367 m/s)
    (12)- Purple 1,295 ft/s (395 m/s)"

    I have also seen a listing for a intermediate loading with a brass case and Blue tip but do not remember it's place in this range of loadings. The velocity ratings obviously apply to some standard fastener and it's positioning in the tool and the tip to point of impact distance, as All Tool usage requires the 'muzzle' of the Tool to be in strong contact with the target point to release the safety and allow the tool to fire.

    Loads are listed as available in .22, .25, and .27 calibers. In the past I have used .22 Grade 7 (Nickle-Gray loads shaped like a .22 Shot shell) in a Ruger Standard Automatic with a machined steel 'furnace' or blank firing adapter attached to the muzzle in Military Training. It provided very reliable functioning of the action, a LOUD report, and at night a flame about 18 inches long. It made a very effective Attention Getting device for inattentive Sentries at night.

    ADDED by EDIT 20130817:
    Current .22 Caliber Grade 2 Brown Tipped Load is in a case with the following measurements:
    Rim diameter +.274"; Rim thickness =.040"; Body Diameter above rim =.225"; Body diameter just below shoulder =.224"; Neck Diameter =.205"; Height to bottom of shoulder =.354"; Height to top of shoulder =.378"; Height to bottom of star crimp =.483"; Overall Length =.503"; Head Stamp is "Super X", a Winchester-Western trademark. The shape is reminiscent of a .22 long rifle Shot shell but considerably shorter.

    Current .25 Caliber Grade 3 Green Tipped load is in a case with the following measurements;
    Rim diameter =.296"; Rim thickness =.047"; Body diameter =.244" to .245"; Overall Length =.398" to .399"; Height to bottom of star crimp = .287"; Head Stamp = "H" inside Circle (possibly Olin/Henry?).

    Current .27 Caliber Grade 3 Green Tipped load is in a case with the following measurements:
    Rim diameter =.329"; Rim thickness =.050; Body diameter =.2695" to .270"; Overall Length =.411"; Height to bottom of star crimp = .275"; Head stamp = "H" inside Circle (possibly Olin/Henry?).

    Previous observations of a Grade 7 Gray on Nickel Loads showed it was in a .22 Long rifle length Shot shell case and would function through a .22 Long rifle chambered firearm easily and reliably. SAMMI Dimensions for the .22 Long Rifle Shot Cartridge are as follows;
    Rim diameter = .278"; Rim thickness =.043"; Body Diameter =.226" cylindrical; Neck diameter =.217"; Height to bottom of shoulder =.6506"; Height to top of shoulder =.7078"; Height to bottom of star crimp = Not Listed; Overall Length =.990"

    I hope this is useful to other readers of this thread.
    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  17. #17
    Boolit Master pietro's Avatar
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    FWIW, nailgun power loads use an explosive propellant, containing Nitroglycerin.

    http://www.ramset.com/pdfs/MSDS/MSDS_PAT_Loads-2011.pdf


    .
    Experience is a wonderful thing - It lets you recognize a mistake, when you make it again.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Thank you for the MSDS post. I was unaware that Olin made Powder tool Loads in .32 and .38 Center Fire calibers, now I will need to search out the data.
    Your observation that They contain Nitroglycerin while true, is incomplete.
    The propellant is apparently a "Double Base" type smokeless powder, using both Nitroglycerin and Nitrocellulose mixed with Dibutyl phthalate and initiated by a Lead compound as primer mix.
    Very similar to most of our reloading supplies unless we are using Black Powder and none Lead containing Primers.
    As with ANY propellant Powder or Primer, actual use in a well ventilated site is recommended, but then again, who would willingly be in a unventilated small enclosed volume when firing cartridges?
    I, for one, do my shooting at either a properly built and managed Commercial Indoor Range, for pistols, or Outdoors at a Commercially Operated Range, for Rifles and at outdoor permitted Hunting areas (not very often any more, my body is no longer up to long hilly hikes nor exposed overnight camping).
    The MSDS indicates there is no appreciable risk of exposure from handling the Power loads, just some risk when they are fired.
    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

    ADDED: A "Quick Search" with google located .32 S&W Blanks in both Black Powder and Smokeless Powder loadings.
    The seem to be the roll crimp type with some sort of wad or plug tohold the charge in.
    Last edited by Chev. William; 09-23-2013 at 11:04 AM. Reason: Added informating to post.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Explosive 1.4S s the same class as most small arms ammo.

    If Olin/ Winchester is loading these, I would almost bet they are loaded with a non canister grade of W231. I could be wrong on that.


    I was unaware that Olin made Powder tool Loads in .32 and .38 Center Fire calibers, now I will need to search out the data.
    Seeing this made me think of a cable cutter we had on my first ship, it was powered by a .45 Colt load, miniscule original rim and all. I have no idea if it was blackpowder or smokeless, we never used it. It was in an old looking box in the armory, I guess it was meant to be a last ditch effort cut the spanwire if the pelican hook got jammed during underway replenishment.

    The way it worked was you loaded it then hooked the wire and yanked. The trigger was in a slot the wire was supposed to trip.

    Somehow I don't think it would be very fun to use in a real life situation.

    Robert

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Oh Yea, you brought back memories of my second Active duty ship, the U.S.S. Whippoorwill (MSC207). We used 'cable cutters' rigged on our contact mine sweeping gear cutter cables in flat plate finned clamp on sets of either two large or three medium ones per fin. The ones we used had 'break away' anvils if they fired. The trigger was from a 'release wire' that spanned the opening between the cutter bit and the anvil. When a mine mooring cable was guided into the space in the cutter, it broke the trigger wire just as it caught in the spot to be cut, the blank charge fired and drove the cutter bit through the cable then broke the anvil off so the next encounter with a mooring cable would not jam the setup. We used them in earnest to sweep old mines from Can Rhan Bay in Vietnam before it was reworked into the military harbor it was used for later on. We sank or exploded the cut contact mines with 20mm Gun fire after they surfaced.
    Thanks for the reminder of that time in the "Late Great South East Asia Garden Party" 1963-1965.
    Best Regards,
    Chev. William, both an Ionizing Radiation and an Agent Orange registered Service connected Disabled Veteran, ETC USN retired.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check