Attempt to make a Taper Crimper on my new Lathe

[DoctorBill]

I have a Thread in this section of Cast Boolits called,
"My First Attempt at a "D-Bit" Bullet Mold"
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...32#post1678832

In that thread (which was kicked out of Paper Patch Bullets by a couple of the
residents of that section), I made a couple of Aluminum Bullet molds the hard way.
I used a Drill Press and a newly made D-Bit.

I then was talked into buying a 9 inch Lathe and started a whole new approach
to this hobby.
I now want to learn how to use the new Lathe and to make accoutrements for
my Paper Patch Black Powder Cartridge rifles.

As a second project, I want to learn how to make a Taper Crimping Tool with this new Lathe.

For me it is like when they tried to make an Atomic Bomb for the first time.
The knew nothing and had to try a bunch of new methods and learn quite a lot.

I know next to diddly squat about using this new Lathe.

So I will be asking for advice and maybe even taking that advice - although I
cannot guarantee I will...I know I'll get conflicting opinions and make some of you
angry when I don't follow your words of wisdom.

I would appreciate any help I can get. Sarcasm is not required.

So the first thing is to come up with a design.

I have a machinist friend, Gary, who made a Taper Crimping Tool for me
for an 1873 Martini-Henry 577-450 rifle.

I watched him do it, so I know just enough to hurt myself at some point !

That is Gary's Taper Crimping Tool on the bottom right.


I am now off to a Graphics program to design it.
Have to start with some goal in mind - not just chuck up a round bar stock and start cutting.

If anyone conversant in making these crimpers can chime it - God Bless you !

As I remember, Gary drilled into some steel round stock to some point, then used a cutting
tool to ream out the first part of the inside up to the inner shoulder.
He threaded the tool and knurled the end.

I do not remember how he cut the taper at the top.
I do remember he was VERY careful in doing it since even a thousandth too much cutting
would have ruined it.

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

So - I want to make something like this.



I have to learn how to bore out the inside of this tool.

How long should it be ?

I have to learn how to thread - it should thread into my LEE
press.

Biggest problem - how do I bore a very shallow taper ? !
...and not screw it up by making too large a diameter - top or bottom
of the taper.

What type of steel should I start with ?
Don't think Aluminum would work - too soft.
Doesn't need to be harder than the hinges of Hell, however.
I won't be making all that many cartridges.

Wish I had taken shop in High School ! I wanted to be a Chemist then.

This ought to be interesting....I wonder how many attempts it will take ?

DoctorBill

[Bent Ramrod]

Do you have a copy of "How To Run A Lathe" by South Bend Lathe Co? Or a copy of "Manual of Lathe Operation" by Atlas Press Co? Either of these books will get you started on turning, boring and threading operations on the lathe. There are sections on how to grind the tools for these operations as well. I think Lindsey Publications publishes at least the first book. The second ought to be available from the Clausing in Kalamazoo, MI. Best of all would be to see if your local Community College has a Machine Tool Operation course available. I hung on in the local one here for six years; if they hadn't phased the courses out, I'd still be taking them.

You can set tapers on your compound rest with a test bar and a couple of dial indicators, but buying a machine tool is like buying a Barbie doll--the accessorizing never ends. A bevel protractor, some hole gauges, micrometer, thread micrometer, thread gauge, dial caliper, etc., etc. all would be handy for the crimper you want to make.

Don't give up. The late great Rudy Kouhoupt started out as a chemist and changed directions to become a modelmaker and master machinist, and writer on the subjects. I myself started out on the same false path and now at this late date am trying to catch up to my true destiny. It's never too late!

[DoctorBill]

Bent Ramrod - Yes. I have the Manual of Lathe Operation" by Atlas Press Co on a CD.
Also bought "How to Run a Lathe" on CD.

Been reading them.

Wish I could take that course - kinda like having sex after reading a book about it.
Not the same.
Women won't hurt you like a Lathe can if you do it wrong....

I am afraid of it - the Lathe that is.

Women too, BTW....cost more than Lathes do. In the long run.

I got a lot out of watching my friend Gary work on his Lathe.

But he wails and I go REEEEAL slow...it scares me.
I've caught myself leaving the Key in the Chuck.
Bending over the spinning chuck.
Almost ran the tool into the work too fast....get impatient.

But I'm getting better at it. Excuses....excuses....

DoctorBill

[Frank46]

Check out machine supply houses like MSC, Travers Tool, Enco. See if they have any 7/8"x14tpi
threaded rod. Comes in 3 foot lengths. Usually not expensive. This will give you plenty of stuff to practice with and if you goof up one just cut off another piece and start over. Machines and polishes well. Frank

[DoctorBill]

Frank 46 - OMG ! Never thought to start off with a threaded Rod !
Kinda bypasses me learning to thread...but what the heck !
Thanks for the suggestion ! THAT'S why I like coming here !

I'm looking thru the ENCO and Grizzly Catalogs for parting off holders.

Grizzly sells "kits" for mini-lathes that have all the stuff (+) that I need,
(p 641 2012 catalog plus middle p 637) while ENCO does not....strange.

ENCO's prices are 10x Grizzly's !

Rather buy ENCO - no state sales tax for me.

DoctorBill

Edited in 4/18.....I ordered the above said threaded rod from ENCO !
Along with 8 oz of "Layout Fluid" a "Carbide Finishing Stick"
and a saw blade for my band saw.

Then I ordered a "parting Tool Holder" from Grizzly for $11.50 and a
second HSS parting off Blade for $5.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Cut-...gle%2Bproducts


ENCO wants $75 for their cheapest small one !

My Lathe Tool Post is so small that even with the smallest Part-Off
tool, I need to grind it down. Bottom of toolpost to work center is only 5/16"
(0.313").

Grizzly has a nice 17-Piece Quick Change Tool Post Set (T10166) for $130.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/17-P...gle%2Bproducts
Ordered one !

It is for small 'Toy' Lathes like mine.
I would hope the center bolt will fit the holder in the above set.
Might have to make a new center bolt on this very Lathe...

These Catalogs are like a Toy Catalog to a Kid - for me !
I want all them thar goodies !

[DoctorBill]

My ENCO 9"x20 Lathe broke !

I was turning a 1 inch steel rod.
Just started up the Lathe after I had been turning the rod to reduce the diameter
when I heard a snap or a thud.

Wasn't sure what had happened - the Lathe kept turning...so I turned it off.

Looked all around - nothing - so I turned it back on.

Then I noticed the Leadscrew was not turning.

Looked at the gears in the transmission, the belt, - ????

Long story short - the "Keyed Bushing" between the two big gears in the "Quadrant Assembly" shattered.



This is the Keyed Bushing that makes both Big Gears turn together.



This Keyed Bushing holds the two gears together so they turn simultaneously
and transmit power to the Leadscrew thru the transmission.

Here is the shaft and bushing together w/o the two gears.


No idea why it broke, but that event boogered up three teeth on the
plastic gear between the Spindle and the Leadscrew.

Has anyone ever had something like this happen before ?
No idea why that bushing broke.
My friend Gary thinks it looks like it is a formed and sintered steel piece.

E-Mailed ENCO to see if they cover it in the one year warranty -
(the Keyed Bushing and the Plastic Gear)
they answered that the Warranty Department will call me....

DoctorBill

PS - Rcvd the threaded 7/8x14 tpi metal rod from ENCO.

[2Tite]

Depending on what cartridge case you want to make the taper crimp die for.......You may be back to making a d-bit "reamer". Some cases make take one larger than you want to make but you can taper the d-bit "reamer" on the lathe to suit. Perhaps a combination of boring and reamer will get you to where you want to be..........

[dragonrider]

You can bore it but making a reamer will give you a much better finish that will be much easier to polish. Make the reamer first, then drill, bore and ream the die. One thing about makeing the reamer is you will be able to see what you will end up with without have to peer into a hole and work blind so to speak.
Bummer about the lathe.

[DoctorBill]

Yes...I like the "Reamer" idea...to me it seems like a much more elegant solution.

DoctorBill

[longbow]

+1 on what dragonrider said.

I was going to suggest the same thing. After all you now have a means to make a D reamer... at least after the lathe is repaired.

Any relatively high carbon steel can be used. Annealed (heat red and cool slowly) turn to shape, polish, cut in half to the centerline (D bit), hone the flat face, heat red and quench, polish, heat until a straw colour. That should cut steel fine when done.

Alternately you might just case harden using something like Kasenite.

I have used medium to high carbon steel for D bits and in one case I case hardened a piece of misidentified steel that would not heat treat hard enough. Automotive head bolts work well if you can get the right size but steel rod should be readily available in high carbon grades.

Agreed, bummer about the lathe.

Longbow

[DoctorBill]

The Lathe still runs fine - just no turning leadscrew.



I am waiting for ENCO's Warranty Dept to call me.

Been turning a one inch rolled steel (Iron) rod down to 0.875 from the one inch
just to get some experience on the Lathe.

It is too large to go into my spindle, so it is held by the Chuck only and GARY
suggested I drill each end enough to insert the LIVE CENTER -
which I did.

I will still have a go at making a Taper Crimper Tool out of the steel, even
though I now have 7/8x14 threaded rod available.

Might make one with each starting material.

I'm using Gary's Ground tool and it cuts fine, but I get a rough rod with
ridges on it.

No matter how slow I go, it still has a rough ridged surface.



BuckShot ! - You might recognize that Live Center !

DoctorBill

[buyobuyo]

If you're running the lathe by hand, you most likely not going to get a smooth finish. Or at least, I can't get a smooth finish by hand that way. You want to let the lathe do the feeding and go slow. Increasing your RPM would also help.

[DoctorBill]

I switched to a 1/2" Carbide Bit that BuckShot sent to me.
Had to grind down the bottom of the entire bit's length to center the bit
on the work.



My 4x4 ToolPost is small and the bit was about 40 thousands too high.
Probably should let Gary mill the bottom of the ToolPost so that 1/2" bits
all set at the right height "out of the box."

I will increase the RPMs also.

QUESTION:
Both This Carbide and Gary's HSS Cutting Bit cut when going toward the HeadStock
(Yellow arrow)
But cut a LOT MORE when I reverse the direction away from the HeadStock
(Blue arrow) w/o changing the depth at all. i.e. Same Depth !

Doesn't matter how slow I go, same thing always happens....seems odd to me.

Can anyone tell me why that happens ? 'splain it to me ?

DoctorBill

PS - Upped the rpms to the next inner pulley slot and the bar is now smoooooth !
Lord - how obvious ! Experience ! I feel foolish.
Still keep cutting much more off when I go back vs going toward the Headstock,
Could something be loose ? Checked everything....

A Thought - Does this have something to do with the slop (backlash) in the Carriage ?
Pushing the bit vs pulling the bit ?
Gary tells me that I can't do anything about carriage backlash. All his machines have it to
some extent.

It would be nice if one could lock the Carriage Position during cuts.

[dragonrider]

Carbide vs high speed steel, what you are experiencing is from spring back, you are getting more spring from the carbide tool because carbide is not as sharp as high speed steel. One can get high speed steel to be very sharp, not so with carbide because it is brittle and the edge breaks down, it will only get so sharp, not like steel. So because of the duller edge of the carbide tool it is pushing harder on your tool post, crosslide, and the workpiece also. The benifit of carbide is higher speeds and longer life and many times a better finish when everything is working right. On your machine I would suggest you not use carbide as it requires more horsepower than high speed steel tools.

[Chicken Thief]

A round tip is the "only" thing that will give a fine finish in one go.

http://www.glanze.co.uk/acatalog/Lat...ing_Tools.html

[DoctorBill]

Believing in "Experimention" myself, I tried something.

If the heavier cutting occurring on the travel away from the HeadStock
(to the right) were due to the backlash "Slop" in my Carriage, then were
I to push the carriage toward me from the rear of the Carriage while going
to the right, the cutting I see while going away from the HeadStock would stop occurring.

IT DID !

So this oddball business is due entirely to the back and forth Carriage movement - about 1mm slop.

If this is "Normal" ....hmmmm.....

I don't like it.

Maybe I can devise a way to clamp the Carriage down after I set the cut depth.

DoctorBill

[Bent Ramrod]

Generally, carbide does better with rapid feeds and fairly heavy cuts. However, your small lathe will probably not tolerate much of either (that may be what cracked your bushing in the first place). So you will have to find the happy medium through that sadistic taskmaster "Experience." Order a couple extra bushings and anything else that looks fragile once the Warranty people get hold of you.

What you are seeing going back and forth is springing of your tool, carriage, the round stock you are turning and the bed ways of the lathe itself as the tool presses into the work and makes the cut. Remember the old bromide about the 98-lb woman in heels pressing down at thousands of pounds per square inch because of the leverage and geometry. That is what you are doing with the point of that tool.

The reason you are cutting well on the back stroke is the angle of the tool is more extreme, giving a long lead in on the cut, therefore less pressure pushing the work away from the edge of the tool. Get used to this; it is inevitable with a small machine. You will have to "take the spring out of the work," i.e., make a separate pass on the work without advancing the tool, probably every twenty thousandths depth you go. Keep checking with your micrometer to see what your final size gets to be after the tool stops cutting. This is how a machinist "learns" his machine.

I usually take a .005" cut at the slowest carriage feed on steel with my 6" x 21" Atlas although I have gone deeper if the steel is soft and the tool is sharp. This is with High Speed Steel, rather than carbide, which I seldom use. I would suggest you do the same (or less) until you figure out what the lathe can stand up to.

Chicken Thief is right about a rounded tool making for a good finish. Your lathe books should show the shapes of a knife tool for roughing and a rounded tool for finishing. You may have to change tools to get the finish you want after taking the work down to close to size. You may even have to learn to file the spinning work (and endure the disgusted snorts of your friend Gary) to get the size and finish close and then continue polishing with emery and crocus to get it exact. You may wind up wondering how these skilled mechanics and tool-and-die people make it look so easy and quick.

Don't ask me how I know this.

[DoctorBill]

In just about all endeavors, if you ask five people how to do something,
you'll get five different answers and each one will do battle if you disagree
with them.

"...rapid feeds and fairly heavy cuts. ....that may be what cracked your bushing in the first place"
You have no idea how opposite to what you said I am going !

I am taking minimum cuts and going slow as a snail.

This machine scares the puck out of me !

It took me a couple of days to get used to the noises it made at the lowest
speed that I could run it at (used Aluminum stock).

I just changed it up in speed by one belt position.
It makes a whole new set of noises now.
I've stopped several times and am going to go back and check the lubrication
points in the manual.

I expect it to explode in my face at any time !
Will the bit crack off and send it flying into my face ?
I saw Gary feed too heavily and his machine jammed to a stop.
I'm waiting for that to happen to me...I'm taking about 0.002" cuts as
slow as a snail.
Gary takes what must be 7 or 9 thousands cuts and traverses fast !

I am scared to stand close enough to watch him !

My Lathe has a 3/4 HP motor. Uses a "100" ToolPost or AXA size - I believe.

The Carbide tip seems to work well so far at my very modest feed speed.
I am now pulling the Carriage back toward me when I reverse my direction and
I get little or no "Extra Cutting".

Someday, I'll be giving advice to some rookie (God Help him!) and I'll
swear that this is how it is done !

BTW - I almost have this rolled iron rod down to 0.875 (7/8") diameter....3.5" long.
Has taken me two days with a lot of off time staring at it.

DoctorBill

[Longwood]

Geeeez Bill
I could have sworn a member sent you a bunch of aluminum to practice and learn with so you would not break your new toy.