To anneal...or not!

[RMulhern]

It's been my experience and opinion over the many years that I have been a competitive shooter that one main requirement of accuracy with hand-loaded ammunition is consistent neck tension upon the bullet. For any serious shooter, no matter what discipline, whether it be NRA HP, BPTR, Silhouette, or a 'home shooter' like onto myself, consistent neck tension if not maintained will not yield good accuracy...especially at long range...no matter whether the paper Creedmoor target or steel gong out to 1000 yards is the order of the day. Even though I don't compete in BPCR I probably get to shoot more long range than most because of the convenience of having literally in my backyard almost my own range and with the exception of some of the hottest days in July/August there aren't many days that I'm not pounding away at my Creedmoor target from the 1000 yard line. I found what works for me at long range with my Shiloh rifles quite sometime ago so if you want to possibly further your possibilities with improved accuracy at long range you can continue to read! If not...go to another subject! If there is any one secret to improving accuracy at all ranges...it is based upon the aspect of whether or not a shooter will take the time to ANNEAL THEIR CASES!! This last statement probably will get a lot of 'guffaws' from many shooters because I know that some shooters don't anneal their cases and get what they consider to be great accuracy. I won't argue with that! What I will say is that if BPCR cases are constantly fired without being annealed the brass becomes work-hardened to the point whereby 'blow-by' occurs leaving the front of the cases sooty because the mouth of the case will not expand to seal off the escaping gases and without a doubt this problem will not yield consistent muzzle velocity! I normally shoot Norma brass in both of my Shiloh 45 2 7/8 rifles but lately I have been shooting some Starline brass with good results from the 800 yard line. At one time I was FL resizing all of my brass but recently with already fire-formed brass I have discontinued this procedure and instead after the insertion of my components and after the upper OPW is installed I run the as loaded case into the taper crimp die such that the interior of the mouth of the case will be of such diameter closely matching the exterior of the patched bullet giving a snug fit. The use of a 22 degree chamfer tool that Orville told me about quite sometime back helps insertion of the patched bullet. Once upon a time during the final phase of loading when I was running a case up into the TCD to close the mouth of the case down a bit to fit the bullet I noticed that the procedure had no effect on the brass for reducing the interior diameter! What the heck is wrong I thought?? The die was set at the proper depth! Then it hit me....these cases were work-hardened and the brass was springing back and would not take a set! I then took several cases from the block of 50 that I was working on and all were the same way as these cases had been fired at least 6-8 times WITHOUT BEING ANNEALED! I shut the whole operation down....got out my propane bottle, darkened the room and proceeded to anneal all cases. After annealing all cases responded to my procedure of loading and gave excellent accuracy! In the final analysis...FWIW it's my opinion that annealing cases is a very worthwhile endeavor for the serious BPCR competitor!

From the mind and experience of an old man!

[Kenny Wasserburger]

MMMM I seem to recall some fella that shoots a lot of 1000 yard matches with his 110 anneals after every firing. Its booohhhaa all the time. He also uses Fg all the time. Primer wads too.

KW
The Lunger

[kokomokid]

Are you going for a certain temperature or case color when you anneal?

[Mike Brooks]

Thanks for posting this. It's the next step for me. I am at this point a "backyard shooter" and hope to glean enough information from you willing to share it to become competitive befor I actually compete...if that makes sense. I have picked up alot of information that has made a big difference from you guys that are willing to share.

[RMulhern]

Are you going for a certain temperature or case color when you anneal?

The moment it starts to turn from a blue hue to a slight red that ends the process!

[windrider919]

I also found that annealing my cases improved accuracy.

But I anneal using a slightly different procedure.....

I found that using a torch that occasionally I would 'scorch' a brass from overheating a spot. This burns the zinc out of the alloy and leaves just the copper...not good! So I built a rotator w/ swivel kicker into the water bath to make the process consistent but it was actually too much trouble to get set up each time so I stopped doing it that was.

What I do is set up my lead pot with pure lead in it, heat to 650F and flux to get it clean and shiny.

I then take a fired, UNPROCESSED, dry, case with the soot still on it (this is to keep any tinning down), holding it by the base [ using my fingers, only with short auto pistol brass would you need pliers or such ...and who bothers to anneal 45ACP or its brothers!!!] and dip the case mouth vertically into the molten lead 3/8" deep. After TWO SECONDs I pull the case out of the lead and stick the case 1/2 its length into a bowl of ice water (could be regular room temp water but I just LIKE to use ice water so after 100 brass the water has not warmed up). After another couple of seconds, pull the case out of the water. I look/inspect the case mouth inside and out just in case for tinning, then set the case on a towel to fully dry. After it dries, I then process the annealed brass the regular way, which for PP (for me) is actually only 'sizing' the first 0.100 of the case so that it is only .002 less than the wrapped bullet OD. Then I just 'kiss' the case mouth with a bell-er so that a PP bullet will just start in without catching. You can ALMOST insert a bullet by hand but not quite.

So I get good CONSISTENT and undamaged annealing providing proper case mouth tension and the brass is almost immortal if annealed like this every five firings. The brass gets annealed without ever having any damaging overheating or having one side of the case be annealed more than the other (or, actually the problem is the side that did not get annealed ENOUGH) as sometime happens when using a hand torch.

The MAIN point is that it is much EASIER and quicker to anneal this way versus the other ways.

Note - I do the above with the straight walled BPCR cases....for bottle necked cartridges I insert the case PAST the shoulder about 0.200 to 1/4", then do the quench the 1/2 case length. Don't worry about hot brass burning your fingers...if you held it in the molten lead long enough to get the case base that hot...you kept it in at least four or five times too long. If annealed properly, the base never gets any temp raise AT ALL!!!

WARNING : A SAFETY warning...We all know this is common sense BUT........once you have inserted the case into the water to cool it off, DO NOT RE-INSERT IT INTO THE MOLTEN LEAD WHILE ANY WATER IS IN OR ON THE CASE!!!! The resulting 'STEAM EXPLOSION" could send droplets of molten lead flying out and you could be burned. If you DO this, I have warned you and am not liable.

[montana_charlie]

What I do is set up my lead pot with pure lead in it, heat to 650F and flux to get it clean and shiny.

I then take a fired, UNPROCESSED, dry, case with the soot still on it (this is to keep any tinning down), .

This is the first time somebody specified that he uses pure lead (or the first time I finally payed close attention), and I suspect that alone will prevent 'tinning' of the brass.

CM

[nanuk]

Montana Charlie: Pure lead won't tin, correct?

[montana_charlie]

Montana Charlie: Pure lead won't tin, correct?

I can't say for sure, because I am only reading along, like you.
But, over the years I did a lot of soldering on electronic circuitry, and on copper pipe, and on brass plate.

None of those metals get joined with pure lead. The lead needs some tin to turn it into 'solder' ... and without the tin it's tough to make anything stick together.

Prior to joining the parts, it's common to 'tin' them with the solder first. I am certain that trying to 'tin' anything with pure lead would be most frustrating.

Therefore, I am willing to believe that annealing cases in pure lead can be done without the brass being 'tinned' by the lead.

CM

[John Boy]

Therefore, I am willing to believe that annealing cases in pure lead can be done without the brass being 'tinned' by the lead.

I tried it - a pure PITA. The cases have to be spotlessly clean and I still got 'tinning' on the inside of the case. Use a propane torch for best results .
And BTW - dunking the brass in cold water does not leave the brass annealed. Air dry them

A good read ... http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

[Chill Wills]

This, taken from the Starline Brass, Inc. website Q & A

"How can I soften case mouth to allow case to properly seal when using black powder
in 45-70, 45-90, 45-2.6 (45-100) and 40-65?

1.) Be aware this is not always necessary. Only if cases are extremely dirty and a lot of unburned powder is consistently found in chamber would you need to anneal.

2.) First place case in proper container filled with approximately 1 inch of water so head of case is submerged in water. (Reason is you only want to soften mouth of case and not head area as this can ruin strength at base and primer pocket where case must remain rigid to handle pressure.)

3.) Next heat case mouth (approx. top 1/2 inch of case) uniformly just to where it begins to turn a dullred and then knock over in water. A propane torch is usually used for heating device. MOST IMPORTANT: Remember if case gets too hot they are ruined and there is no way to make hard again. So, try a few out and get a feel for the proper color and softness required for your application. If they get bright red, you probably went too far."

It seems with Starline brass, water cooling the brass works.

I really dislike extra work. If annealing makes a difference on the target, you need to do it for best accuracy but if not omit the step. Only load testing can answer the question for the rifle, brass and load your are shooting. One size does not fit all and not all accurate rifle/loads require annealing. (my opinion) Shoot and learn.

[nanuk]

And BTW - dunking the brass in cold water does not leave the brass annealed. Air dry them

What do you mean by this? Are you saying water quenching HARDENS the brass?


my understanding is:
dunking them STOPS the annealing process from migrating to the head.

if the heat is applied sparingly and very accurately, I doubt ANY water cooling would be needed, but it certainly is a SAFETY step.


also I remember reading someones technique of dunking the brass mouth in oil BEFORE the lead dunk to ensure there was no "Tinning"

I guess the best way is to try it for oneself. IF you have some tin in your melt, it by be an issue.

[John Boy]

What do you mean by this? Are you saying water quenching HARDENS the brass?

Unlike steel, which will be made harder when it is cooled rapidly, brass is virtually unaffected when it is rapidly cooled. Annealing brass and suddenly quenching it in water will have no measurable effect on the brass.

my understanding is:
dunking them STOPS the annealing process from migrating to the head.

Let's go over this again: Heat the mouth to approximately 625-650 degrees. The color of the brass will be a dark straw or bluish/green color. If the mouth has a red color, one is pushing the temperature towards the 1000 degree area which is creating the brass to be too soft.

Granted the web of the cases should not be softened. But if you are holding the rim while annealing and one heats the mouth to the proper temperature ... the web area will not be softened or impacted
All commercial annealing done on brass using flame or electricity, the cases are never dunked in water ... Okie Dookie?

[Longwood]

I did a few thousand brass over the years using a torch and dropping in water.
I had a close friend that insisted on the air cool method.
The water drop method worked perfectly every time and I never ruined apiece of brass.
The air cool method, my friend used, evidently worked but I was always able to out-shoot him. He was the type that would, beat himself, at the range, so I doubt it was because of the annealing technique he used.
I tried the molten lead dipping method once,,,, but dropped that method immediately.

I only shoot big, straight cases now, so I anneal the new brass when I get it, then not again.

[windrider919]

I tried it - a pure PITA. The cases have to be spotlessly clean and I still got 'tinning' on the inside of the case. Use a propane torch for best results .
And BTW - dunking the brass in cold water does not leave the brass annealed. Air dry them

A good read ... http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

This is why I specified DIRTY, sooty fired but not otherwise processed, brass as the carbon inside and out keeps ANY residue from sticking...

I tried oil (using WW I was getting an occasional brass with some tinning outside the case mouth but then you have to CLEAN the oil from the case.

Yes the military brass IS 'air cooled' but when I took the tour (via American Rifleman a few years ago) ....the annealing table had a rotating 'wheel' where the brass is positioned, then picked up with the base in the wheel and the case mouth sticking up. The brass are spun on their axis while the wheel rotates AND simultaneously heated with a flame...the nozzle moves around a segment of the wheel with the brass to stay focused on the case mouth, then as the torch pulls away, then LARGE jets of air blow on the case and practically instantly cool it off, then it drops out of the fixture wheel into a cart to be taken to the next step. Yep, it's 'air cooled' but NOT slowly. According to the article, commercial brass is similarly annealed but then is polished to remove the annealing marks...they are left ON military brass as an indicator that the step WAS done.

[Ed in North Texas]

Not long ago a Canadian posted his method of annealing batches of cases (not just a few) here on Cast Boolits. He used a Lee dipping pot and (IIRC) potassium nitrate. Made a fixture to fit in the pot with two holes for his brass (grossly different sizes would require more than one plate with holes). He heats the Lee pot, then starts putting brass, neck down, into the two holes. After the 2d piece goes in the hole, the first one comes out. IIRC, he stated about 2 seconds per case in the salt bath.

He even posted a video of him working. I bookmarked the thread, but I'm not at home and my laptop doesn't have the bookmark. A search for annealing should turn it up, he posted it this year for sure, about mid-May, maybe a bit earlier in May. Don't know it would be worthwhile to set it up for 50 cases, but other than waiting for the Lee pot to melt the Potassium Nitrate to temperature (and cool back down to put it away), the time it takes is near nothing per case.

Hope that helps someone.

Ed

[nanuk]

if any Canadian wants to try this, remember, Potassium Nitrate is a Controlled substance and getting difficult to get.

use it for anything going "BANG" and you are breaking Federal Laws.

Use common sense when looking for it.

[Ed in North Texas]

if any Canadian wants to try this, remember, Potassium Nitrate is a Controlled substance and getting difficult to get.

use it for anything going "BANG" and you are breaking Federal Laws.

Use common sense when looking for it.

I thought I remembered you, or some other Canadian, posting in that thread that it was getting difficult to obtain in Canada. Didn't understand that it is a Controlled Substance in Canada (a somewhat different term definition here in the US). Wonder how long it will be before some politician here in the US decides we also need a Federal law regulating Potassium Nitrate.

Like your Sig!

Ed

[popper]

Dunking in lead works fine. It will cool the lead and glob it on the outside. When the lead drops off, the temp of brass is right and then water cool to stop it from ruining the shoulder. It doesn't give the color change of flame annealing.

[jmorris]

To anneal consistent from first case to last I built this contraption. It does make a difference.



http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=48611