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Thread: VdoMemorie-Blazing Sabot!

  1. #661
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    New york city
    Posts
    6
    great

  2. #662
    Greeting to all my Elite Musketeer High Power Nitro Express Shooters.
    Please don't put no card above the Slug in wad or RB and the backwards push through you check with whatever choke you plan to use, remember 6 to 10 lbs pressure ( Fiction fit )






    Please keep it simple and above all have fun cooking your own load.
    Please feel free to check my Gold mine right here but don't forget to have a pot full of coffee:
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-Blazing-Sabot!
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...Buckshot-loads!
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...Buck-amp-Slugs
    We worked 24/7 just to help our fellow shooters put meat on the table for pennies a Pop and thus created fun loads for the family yet deadly ! !
    Ajay Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots

  3. #663
    Boolit Grand Master

    Join Date
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    I do like those pics Ajay! I got to order me some of those wads.

    I haven't managed to get shooting again recently but will be shortly (after vacation). I have some CSD wads which are perfect fit with 0.662" RB's but I'd like to pick up some of the the wads you show with the 0.678" RB's and see how they do. The 0.678" RB is a tiny bit loose in the wads I have. It does okay to 50 yards but not as well and I know if can do with proper fit... a little thick wad petal is needed.

    Longbow

  4. #664
    Brother Longbow, I admire you and wish you a safe journey for vacation, have great fun with the family.
    The .678 RB should be absolutely no problem just cut a 3/4 piece of photo copy paper and wrap it in the wad and drop the .678 RB and your wad fit will shine ! !

    Looking forwards to See you when you come back, my friend ! !

    Ajay Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots

  5. #665
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
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    Ajay, in your post above you say to load a round ball or slug so that it opens the crimp, not to let the petals open the crimp or petals may be sheared off. Do you advise trimming back the petals, maybe 1/8", to allow the slug to project? Once the wad is loaded the petals are at the edge of the crimp, if I use a card/filler to raise the ball the shell won't crimp properly (star crimp). What do you suggest?
    "We take a thousand moments for granted thinking there will be a thousand more to come. Each day, each breath, each beat of your heart is a gift. Live with love & joy, tomorrow is not promised to anyone......"

    unknown

  6. #666
    Hello Centershot, Yes let the petals trail behind and protect it from getting mangled. Its quite Ok to cut the petals down to adjust the crimp height.
    We are using sub standard Shot shell components as no one is making components Specially designed for us " High Power Nitro Express loaders "

    I was working on the project but suddenly lost interest as I was banned by crooked ones who had nothing to offer, were jealous of my openly offering all the information without PM! !

    Adding nitro cards does give the load a solid platform for powder gases and protects the wad.


    I don't want my friends making mistakes, so I rely heavily on pictures to tell the whole story, follow the direction through pictures ! !
    I like to openly Share right here ! !

    I just called Eric from BPI ( A Great Guy )and asked him to ship me the Trophy Copper Sabot slugs 50 pcs for $29.
    You can't beat the price.
    Looking at the load set up of other Sabot slugs in the market gives us ideas and something to work on ! !
    20 ga 300 gr slug in Sabot

    12 ga






    Very carefully look at the pictures, you will learn by just watching the pictures.
    Don't forget the Ammo manufacturer has specially custom made components for load efficiency and if they can save a grain or two through better fitting components they save a lot in the end and profits go up ! !

    We too can choose far better components. The OP wad plays such a vital role in our loads lets start with one that will not let burning powder gases pass by:
    The PC OP wad is the very best but needs help from us too like this:

    In 20 ga the T. Commander is a bit loose but by putting the .125- 28 ga nitro card in the base OP part of it we spread it for far better opturation and by doing so we strengthen the base to withstand much higher Nitro Express Loads like this:



    Best of luck.
    Ajay Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots
    Last edited by SuperBlazingSabots; 07-14-2018 at 05:22 PM.

  7. #667
    Continued from the previous post:
    The PC OP wad is a tight fit so simply use a plier to flare the hull:

    Your choice of OP wads, not quite as good as I wanted and was working on far far better ones and the molds were already made for 12 and 20 ga:



    We can do the same too with basic common sense and learn to cook our own ! !
    Next we will get into that of loading our loads for Trophy Copper Sabots with 300 gr bullet.
    Be on the lookout for it.

    When ordering Lee bullet molds be sure to order additional base pins also at $1.50 to experiment:


    Or change the useless Lyman Foster slug mold to one piece slug:

    Create your own version:



    This is what you don't want:

    Or this:


    **--**When this happens back off 1/2 gr of powder and see if those marks go away and if not try backing off 1 gr, now this is your Max load for This Gun and Load for Hunting ! !
    Or
    now is the time to switch over to Federal hull ! !

    Keep it simple and above all enjoy your creativity flow through.

    We are all in it to win it.

    Best of luck.
    Ajay Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots
    High Power Nitro Express Shooters Paradise.
    Last edited by SuperBlazingSabots; 07-16-2018 at 01:36 PM.

  8. #668
    Here is a neat way to polish your forcing cones of tool marks that you don't even see, they could be shearing your wads or OP wads at launch.




    The foam came from the shirts that I buy and it helps keep the outwards pressure to polish the tool marks at the forcing cone.

    So simple yet effective.


    Very important for us High Power Nitro Express Shooters to help things out by giving it a lending hand.


    We do all our testing keeping you in mind, to help our shooters.
    No PM, every thing is in the open to help share with you all who supported me.

    The good and the bad:





    Hoping it helps you visualize things.
    Ajay Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots
    Last edited by SuperBlazingSabots; 07-17-2018 at 01:08 PM. Reason: Adding more information to the existing post

  9. #669
    Continued from the previous post:

    Lee mold for $18 beat the Lyman $100 mold by using common sense, no spruce yet a nasty spruce for $100 Lyman.
    Now when I look back what a shame I paid $100 for those Lyman molds with handles ! !



    20 gauge lovers will appreciate this great American wad:

    Just look at what Lee is giving you for $18 for a newer double cavity mold:



    My hats off to Lee for very smart thinking, far better positive locking of the mold blocks and looking for cheaper ways to produce molds.
    Thank you Lee Precision.

    **--** High Power Nitro Express Shooters our Basics.
    Pressure is your friend. Higher pressures lead to more consistent, cleaner burning loads.
    A known fact " Roll crimping produces lower pressures "
    Wise Tip's for Nito Express Slug loader's, Old is still Gold ! !

    " Old is Gold " the old theory still goes, accuracy from a shotgun slug is a function of two things

    1. A good gas seal.

    2. Centering the slug in the bore with a snug fit through out the barrel.

    Achieve those two and you can shoot as well as many big game heavy rifles.

    Since efficiency and accuracy is our prime goal, we need all components to Rhyme with one another and work together hand in hands.

    Saboted Slugs are more aerodynamic, because they are encased in a bore-filling, fall-away plastic sleeve ( the Sabot ) which allows the shotgun to shoot a much more efficient projectile.

    Let's make the right choices:

    1. Choose your components wisely to custom tailor your loads for efficiency!

    2. We need good quality straight walled hulls that are made strong enough to SAAMI
    specification's but will show pressure sign's after a certain pressure level is reached for safety!

    3. Very important to know that certain powders require A Magnum Primer like Alliant Steel for
    example, needs a Fed.209A or CCI.209M!
    Stick with only top name brand primer's that are made to SAAMI specification's like Fed. 209,
    CCI 209, Win. 209 and Fio.616 only for regular primer's for our slug / sabot loads.

    4. Very important, your OP wad must form a good barrier between the powder gases and the
    rest of your wad column, therefore your wad under ideal situation should have longer skirts
    and if your gun has longer forcing cone all the more important for sealing powder gases!

    There goes your load efficiency down the drain:

    5. Let's give it some solid support, add a stronger darker nitro card to transmit the driving forces
    evenly, when ever possible try to incorporate a .250" nitro card in between.

    6. When ever possible try adding a good Felt wad of 1/4, 3/8 or 1/2 inch to help reduce the felt recoil!
    I really love the darker felt fiber wads as they are made well and perform great, but are almost 2 1/2 to 3 time more costlier when compared to the cheaper felt wads from Circle Fly on the right!

    7. Top your Felt wad with a stronger darker nitro card, is like giving it a solid foundation to
    transmit the driving forces evenly and help support the Sabot from below to keep plasma gas
    blow-by from melting the Sabots!

    8. Your Sabots with the proper bullet should be a real tight fit in your rifled barrel and a properly
    designed sabot should not tag along for a free ride piggy back, instead should release the bullet
    immediately and drop off in the first 10 to 25 yard line and not any further!

    **When it comes to smooth bore then your slug in wad needs to be a snug fit enough to require
    6 to 8 lbs pressure to push it through with a wooden dowel and if any more then your pressure's are sure to be high!

    Watch out for your safety comes first!

    9. It is very important that you seat the slug all the way home, use 50 to 60 lbs wad pressure to ensure that.

    10. Try using a harder alloys for casting your slugs for use in Sabots, this way you reduce any chances of distortion at setback when fired allowing the slug to maintain its shape!

    11. A fold crimp will further enhance ignition as the pressures are known to be much higher with fold crimp, you also need a bit less powder this way!

    12. A clean cut rifling will engage the Slug / Sabot far better and impart the required spin for stability in flight for a greater gyroscopic stability that are harder to knock of course, and thus produce massive centrifugal force to help release the bullet instantly from the sabot.

    13. Under ideal hunting situation all you fire is one shot, in some cases may be two the most.
    Does it not make sense to do all your slug testing from a cold barrel and fire two shots to see how well your gun holds the accuracy under ideal hunting situation!
    When testing Slugs or Sabots, three shot group is all you need and pause between shots to let the barrel cool down a bit!

    14. Most loads are more accurate when you tone them down by 2 to 3 gr below Max, and the recoil is easy to digest and won't kick like a mule, that will help you shoot better!

    15. Most Autoloaders and Pump shotguns shoot far better if you tighten the barrel lug all the
    way then back-off one notch to relieve excess pressure on the barrel. Follow that procedure
    every time you venture out for a hunt ! ! Its the little things that will make your hunt soccessful ! !
    Have the knowledge and exposure to " push the loading envelope" to the Max!

    16. When testing a newer load do three shot group and that too space out your shots say " 30 seconds apart "
    * *My heart still feels we should do two shot groups, under ideal hunting situation you mostly need a well placed single shot, is it not far better not to rush to pull the trigger instead take a second or two more to make a positive hit before we pull the trigger ! !






    Knowledge not shared, is knowledge lost!
    Above all I really enjoyed writing this post!

    Hoping it will help some of my Elite Nitro Express Slug Shooter's Family members.


    Ajay Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots
    Last edited by SuperBlazingSabots; 07-20-2018 at 03:29 PM.

  10. #670
    Continued from post #669



    Depending on the model selected, purchasing a new, dedicated slug gun for whitetail deer hunting can be a costly expenditure; however, they typically offer rifle-like accuracy and have the ability to use the latest, flattest-shooting sabots, which lengthens the effective range. With this, “gun” (i.e. shotgun) season in Midwest states such as Illinois correlates with some of the most productive days in the field, thus creating a conundrum for hunters. Effectively, one must determine whether or not the boost in performance is worth the cost, especially given relatively short seasons and the likelihood of encountering a rut-driven, once-in-a-lifetime “trophy.” Fortunately, Winchester offers a slug that provides equally impressive performance from rifled choke tube-equipped smoothbore shotguns as it does from fully rifled slug guns, so those without the means (or desire to part with it) can experience “premium” performance, too. A mainstay in the Winchester line since 1997, the Super-X BRI Sabot Slug has an hourglass-shaped, hollow-point, lead-alloy slug contained within a two-halved sabot, which separates shortly after exiting the muzzle. In 12-ga. 2¾” and 3”, the slug, which measures 1.207” long and 0.50” at its widest points, weighs 1 oz. and is propelled to 1350 f.p.s. and 1400 f.p.s., respectively, whereas the 20-ga., 2¾” offering has a 5/8-oz. version at 1400 f.p.s.

    Both the accuracy potential and terminal ballistics of Super-X BRI Sabot Slugs have proven notable to me on several occasions, the first of which was in preparation for an Illinois whitetail hunt with Riverview Outfitters. At the range, the 12-ga. Browning A-Bolt Shotgun Stalker, which was topped with a Nikon PROSTAFF SlugHunter 3-9X 40 mm scope, delivered three-shot groups measuring 1½” or less at 100 yds with the 3” Super-X BRI Sabot Slugs. The following morning the combination scored on my largest buck to-date, a 13-point taken at 40 yds., and in the evening I bagged a past-prime doe at about 70 yds. The expended slugs exited both animals, and recovery was immediate. A month later, the same 3” load fired from a Sarsilmaz semi-automatic shotgun equipped with a rifled Rem Choke tube and topped with a Leupold 1-4X 20 mm VX-2 scope, accounted for a mature Virginia DMAP doe at a rangefinder-confirmed 149 yds. The slug exited the doe, and it quickly expired within 10 yds. of being hit. Although not as accurate as the Browning, the Sarsilmaz/BRI combination still grouped with 3” (or less) for three shots at 100 yds. Such downrange performance illustrates the capabilities of an “everyday” smoothbore when fitted with a rifled choke tube using Super-X BRI Sabot Slugs. And, from a slug gun, they proved to be astonishingly accurate. MidwayUSA sells five-count boxes for $12.50 to $14, depending on the specific load, which is about $1-$2 less per box than Winchester’s other “premium” slugs. To me, they represent a wise investment. Have you tried Winchester BRI slugs, and if so, what were your impressions? If not, what’s your go-to slug

    The best Roll Crimper was made by Lyman:


    Here is a Great 20 ga High Power Nitro Express gun worth looking into:
    Hunter 20 Gauge Rifled Slug Blued with Black Stocks
    WITH BLUED BARREL, BLACK STOCKS, AND SCOPE RAIL
    Price: $261.00SKU: CR5805


    Do check out the Thumb Hole Stock too.

    https://cva.com/product/hunter-20-ga...-black-stocks/

    The Heavy caliber SS fluted 416 grade stainless steel, .35 Whelen, .35 Remington and .300 Blackout (with a suppressor ready 16.5 inch threaded barrel). All SCOUT V2 rifles feature a genuine DuraSight ®DEAD-ON™ one-piece scope mount as standard equipment.
    The .44 SS version going for $393.50, look:
    https://cva.com/product-line/scout/

    I would love for CVA to turn this beautiful single shot into an Over & Under, while keeping the same looks and design. I'll buy that Sexy Over & under for sure !
    I missed out on the opportunity to buy the beautiful Spanish Lanber Unifrance in 12 & 20 gauge with 21 inch over/under rifled barrels for $500. From what I know now, I would no longer buy a 12 ga for I have a few but only will buy a 20 ga High Power Nitro Express.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntN20jLq45Q




    CVS has indeed taken over the missing H & R fine guns and replaced them with Pump & Style ! !

    Yet another beautiful over and under is Mossberg Maverick HS12 in 12 ga or HS20 in 20 gauge of my choice, rugged, very well designed for HD and close range brush hunting gun.

    Mossberg Maverick Thunder Ranch for $594 comes with 18.5 inch barrels:

    Mind you these two are not rifled barrels so I would recommend putting on a rifled choke tube Carlson's Rifled Choke Tubes, 12 and 20 Gauge are manufactured from 304 high stress stainless steel. Each of these Choke Tubes made by Carlson's Choke.
    https://www.opticsplanet.com/carlson...-20-gauge.html
    **--**For a very demanding Hunter I'll only recommend the very Best Hastings Extended Rifled Choke Tubes 8 inch long at a price tag of $75 True Paradox British guns had 8 to 10 inches rifling, well worth it ! !
    http://www.hastingsdistribution.com/...duct_list&c=30
    Hoping it will help some of my Elite Nitro Express Slug Shooter's Family members.


    Ajay Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots
    Last edited by SuperBlazingSabots; 07-29-2018 at 08:31 PM.

  11. #671
    Continued from the previous post:
    We used TC Pro Hunters in SS for our test with 28 inch rifled barrels besides Savage 220 and 212 in 22 inch rifled barrels.

    Please note the TC Pro Hunter 12 ga 28 inch barrel measures 1 inch at the muzzle.
    The TC Pro Hunter in 20 gauge 28 inch barrel measures .880 inch at the muzzle.


    Another double over and under I have been admiring comes with two barrels Mossberg Silver Reserve II, Over / Under, 12/20 Gauge Barrels, 2 Rounds around $850 imagine just switch the barrel for 20 ga or 12 gauge, you got the best of both Worlds.


    Hoping it will help some of my Elite Nitro Express Slug Shooter's Family members.


    Ajay Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots
    Last edited by SuperBlazingSabots; 07-28-2018 at 03:19 PM.

  12. #672
    Boolit Master

    Rcmaveric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
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    Jacksonville, FL
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    1,349
    If you ever write a book let me know so i can buy it.
    "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far."
    ~Theodore Roosevelt~

  13. #673
    Greetings Rcmaveric, you made me feel good with your Vote of confidence in me.
    I'm here to help my Elite group of Heavy Nitro Express Shooters like yourself.

    We are all in it to win it together.
    One for all, all for one.

    Best regards,
    Ajay Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots

  14. #674
    Boolit Grand Master

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Castlegar, B.C., Canada
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    Ajay:

    I have to ask why you prefer the 20 ga. to 12 ga.

    I am set up for 12 ga. and likely will not change. I have seen other posts on Shotgunworld and other sites where people prefer the 20 ga. as well and I am wondering why it is better.

    Since the general sentiment is that "Bigger is better" when it comes to hunting then full bore 12 ga. is bigger. When it comes to sabot rounds a 12 ga. can be loaded with same diameter slugs as 20 ga. so should see same ballistics and possibly be capable of higher velocity at same pressure due to larger diameter sabot.

    Not a criticism, just curious as to the preference and reasons. Different strokes for different folks.

    Also, in my case being a stubborn smoothbore shooter 12 ga. is better for large buckshot. I like that versatility. For fully rifled guns that doesn't apply.

    I am very much in agreement with your liking of double barrel guns though my preference is side by rather than over/under but both have the same benefit of being simple and 2 quick shots. I am wanting a good bear defense gun as black bears are becoming increasingly more common in my area and grizzly populations are increasing as well. Bear encounters are very common though for the most part black bears are pretty timid and run at the sight of a human.

    If needed however, I am thinking a double barrel gun with Brenneke, heavy hard cast Foster slug or full bore round balls would be a good choice. If double barrel guns are good for dangerous game in Africa and India then I suspect they are good enough for me. If a bear charged I doubt a guy could get off more than 2 shots with a pump gun anyway. The double is 2 trigger pulls with no chance of failure to feed.

    I see your Win AA Red's fail just like mine! Not sure of the reason but I gave up on them.

    I'll say again that is very good to have you back. I always enjoy your posts and have learned a lot from them. Great pics and well presented.

    Thanks.

    Longbow

  15. #675
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
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    The Abyss
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    I, too, am set up for 12 gauge, have been since the beginning ('60's....Eeek!). BUT, If I were starting out today, I'd go with a 20. With today's ammunition the 20 is a good hard-hitting round. And in a package that's 1 to 1-1/2 pounds lighter. The only thing the 12 has over the 20 is in the area of buckshot, I'll concede that point. But for most small game, waterfowl or deer/black bear hunting a 20 gauge will do you right!
    "We take a thousand moments for granted thinking there will be a thousand more to come. Each day, each breath, each beat of your heart is a gift. Live with love & joy, tomorrow is not promised to anyone......"

    unknown

  16. #676
    Hello LongBow, all my life I used a 12 gauge, the moment Savage offered me a Savage 220 in SS I took it and it turned out to be a experience by itself, so good to handle yet it felt not like a shotgun but a .62 calibre rifle.
    I never ever felt under gunned, just as powerful and great fun to shoot for the family and younger kids.
    You have to experience it first hand.
    I would highly recommend CVA Hunter model for $261 with rifled barrel on the post 670. Let the fun begin in a new World.
    Or go for Mossberg Maverick Thunder Ranch over & under with a Carlson rifled choke in 20 gauge, you will never look back ! !
    As we gracefully get younger we need to move to easier to handle and carry guns, those that are still deadly and get the job done ! !
    Our friend HogTamer has been having a ball with the 20 ga loads and the fun with it quietly ! !
    Join the group ! !

    Best regards,
    Ajay Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots

  17. #677
    Boolit Grand Master

    Join Date
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    What I have been kinda thinking of is a Stoeger Premium coach gun which comes with screw in choke tubes, for that very reason... except I'd go 12 ga.

    I have been looking at the Thunder Ranch over/under too. Both guns are quite affordable.

    My one big fear is that with rifled choke tubes (if they performed well with slugs) that regulation would be a major issue. If so then the gun would remain a smoothbore shooting Brennekes, heavy Fosters or round balls for close range bear defense.

    That is the benefit of a single barrel gun ~ as long as the slug stabilizes the gun should be reasonably accurate, where with double barrel that pesky regulation creeps in to complicate things.

    Nothing is ever easy! But part of the fun is solving the problems we run into.

    Longbow

  18. #678
    Hello LongBow, on my post 671 you will find Another double over and under I have been admiring comes with two barrels Mossberg Silver Reserve II, Over / Under, 12/20 Gauge Barrels, 2 Rounds around $850 imagine just switch the barrel for 20 ga or 12 gauge, you got the best of both Worlds.
    Just put on a Carlson rifled choke and you got the best of two Worlds.
    For you I would go with Hastings Extended Rifled Choke Tubes 8 inch long just like the Paradox guns ( will extend the barrel 6 inch )
    Price $75
    http://www.hastingsdistribution.com/...duct_list&c=30

    Best regards,
    Ajay Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots
    Last edited by SuperBlazingSabots; 07-29-2018 at 07:40 PM.

  19. #679
    Boolit Grand Master

    Join Date
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    Ajay:

    Yes, I've looked at that one too. I'd like shorter barrels which is one of the reasons I like the Stoeger Premium coach gun as it comes with screw in choke tubes and short barrels so the addition of rifled choke tubes is easy. For the Mossberg Silver Reserve I'd be wanting to shorten the barrels so would have to have them reamed and tapped for choke tubes after which is a bit pricey. The Silver Reserve looks like a nicer gun that the Thunder Ranch though but either way there is that extra cost to add in.

    Got to see how the toy money holds out first!

    Longbow

  20. #680
    Hello Longbow, I find the Stoeger Condor Field Over & Under Shotguns for $399 at Cabelas much better in 20 gauge you can choose 22 inch or 26 inch barrels.
    In 12 gauge its 28 inch barrel and no mounts for a scope.

    The Mossberg Maverick Ranger for $530 with 18.5 inch barrel, looks so good and well planned with scope mounts, additional rails for lights or lazer beams.
    **--**5 Star ratings here for Maverick Ranger:
    https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/moss...-under-shotgun

    **--** Here is yet another good one Steven Model 555, it usually get a 5 Star rating as compared to others getting 4 Star or 4 1/2 Stars.
    https://www.cabelas.com/product/SAVA...7.uts?slotId=1

    Yet another Beautiful over & under for $462, Pointer Sporting Series Over/Under Shotgun 12 Gauge 28" Vent Rib Barrels 3" Chambers 2 Rounds Silver Receiver Walnut Stock Blued KPS1012F28
    https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/prod...ategory=201702

    **--** For $353 what a beautiful over & under Hatfield Field O/U 12 Gauge Over/Under Break Action Shotgun 28" Double Barrel 3" Chamber 2 Rounds Walnut Stock Black Finish with a 4 Star ratings.
    https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/prod...ategory=201702

    For $454 just look at American Tactical Imports Cavalry SX Over/Under Shotgun 12 Gauge 3" Chamber 28" Barrel Automatic Ejectors Walnut Stock Engraved Nickel Receiver Blued Finish Barrels Vent Rib Brass Bead Sight ATIGKOF12SVE
    https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/prod...ategory=201702

    For $415 what a buy Maverick Hunter Over/Under Shotgun 12 Gauge 28" Barrels 3" Chambers Black Synthetic Stock Matte Blue Barrels
    https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/prod...ategory=201702

    For $459 a Charles Daly 202 12 Gauge O/U Break Action Shotgun 28" Barrels 3" Chambers 2 Rounds Walnut Stock Silver/Black Finish
    https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/prod...ategory=201702

    **--** For $464, the first over & under with 3.5 inch, TriStar Hunter Mag O/U 26" 12ga 3.5" Chamber MOBU Camo.
    Includes:
    5 Beretta/Benelli Style Chokes, Skeet, Improved Cylinder, Modified, Improved Modified and Full

    https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/prod...ategory=201702

    ** I grew up using a double 12 ga side by side, today I would not touch one. Only if I do than over & under a Modern version of the older side by side as it make good sense for slugs or RB or Buckshots as I don't touch bird shot.
    Don't look at this mouth watering picture, its catching ! !
    https://www.google.com/search?q=stev...&bih=794&dpr=1

    Just like the 10 gauge is becoming pretty much obsolete with time, the 20 gauge will be just as popular as the 12 gauge and the ammo will be far more superior in time, it is fast and quick in handling, feels more like a .62 calibre rifle with a rifled barrel ! !
    I proudly call mine a High Power Nitro Express.

    Times sure have changed, guns getting cheaper but money harder to come-by too, years back I would jump at these deals would not think twice. Today I'm retired and money in short supply because our crooked corrupt carrier politicians stole from our SS funds, now have the nerve to tell us US seniors the SS is broke while their banks accounts bulging and might explode with our money ! !
    Such is life and our senior fight must go on for survival and coexistence.

    I'm already going corrupt, don't need another gun, but . . . . .
    You decide, I wish you the very Best, every one who admires you LongBow is on the lookout to see what you buy next, Rock the Boat my friend ! !

    Best regards,
    Ajay Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots
    Last edited by SuperBlazingSabots; 07-31-2018 at 01:59 PM.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check