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Thread: VdoMemorie-Blazing Sabot!

  1. #21
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    66
    Not to belabor but I've been building rifles including Savages since the early 60's and I've stuck a few bolts in most brands AND Savages. With the Savage nut, pulling a barrel is so easy and that amount of strain relief might be enough to let the bolt come loose.

    I'm guessing you have some major brass/plastic extrusion going on at the chamber/boltface junction maybe back into the firing pin hole, maybe into the ejector button hole and even into the extractor slot, all of which will cause a ruckus. If that's the case...worse case scenario...you will have to pull the barrel.

    WD40 is for rust removal more than anything else but it might work if it just needs some lubing up...you might also dribble in some Kroil if you have it.

    DON'T hammer or use a pipe wrench or snipe on the bolt handle...they are stout but also sometimes a bit brittle and can break. Now might be the time to swap in one of those fancy bolt handles.

    Most shotgun shell casings are rated not much more than 16KPSI tops as most loads, even the magnum hotties run below 14KPSI.

    I can get away with a little more pressure, relatively speaking and not overpressure, in my Mossy's and Rems than I can get away with in my NEF's. Many loads that I developed in those shotguns which ejected without problems would lock up the NEF'S using plastic cases of several brands...That ejector is not supported so the brass just bulges out there, pushing down the ejector and locking everything up. It is an EXCELLENT "high pressure and stop it now" indicator...even on my rifle/pistol NEF's.

    The Rem "NITRO" once fired cases worked better than the BRI Multihull in the 12 ga also and Win AA's were like the Energizer Bunny...they just kept going and going and going...as long as I kept the pressure below 16KPSI even the primer pockets stayed relatively tight, but it only took ONE "high" pressure load to ruin a plastic case.

  2. #22
    Good morning Nfg, you are very good, I appreciate your knowledgeable feed back!
    Last weeks we were having extraction issues, this time I had polished the chamber walls to avoid that, but it seems it did not help!

    I did try to use a rubber mallet from the muzzle end to push the hull back against the bolt face, hoping to push the primer back into the hull and did hit the bolt from behing with the mallet to flatten the bulged hull back, so far its a no no.

    Nfg, I do appreciate your feed back and help. today I will try Ed's idea of hammering while trying to open the bolt at the same time!

    The hulls were 2 3/4 Fiocchi Brown with Fed 209 primers, and in yesterdays test were done with
    Active 3 inch red hull and they never failed. The Fiocchi Brown hulls are on special for $ 8.99 with
    25 mm high brass and did seem to be made slightely better , till this jam happened!



    Still looking for an ideal bullet that will cut a clean hole, rather than a part tear!

    This brings us to yet another issue of bullet design:
    Animal tissue is elastic and it will stretch and return to it's former state.
    Since we want a permanent wound channel then we need a bullet with bigger maplet that will cut a clean hole, rather than a tear, to cut a permanant wound channel!


    Thanks for all your help.
    Ajay
    Video Memories
    VdoMemorie's-Blazing Sabots
    www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

  3. #23
    He's a little treat my friends,after experimentation and keeping detailed records



    X12X OP wad easily available from BPI, used in Accutip!
    Ajay
    Video Memories
    VdoMemorie's-Blazing Sabots
    www.PreciousVideoMemories.com
    Last edited by SuperBlazingSabots; 04-28-2012 at 12:18 PM.

  4. #24
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    66
    The Savage bolthead does have a small amount of "slop", basically "headspace" which gives it it's higher level of accuracy because it can "fit" itself to the cartridge head, but if the pressure has taken up that "wiggle room" by expanding the case then all bets are off.

    Polishing a chamber to a high gloss actuall will exacerbate the sticking problem in many cases. Whenever I cut a chamber with a carbide reamer or a very sharp reamer I get a beautiful chamber slick as glass and shiney as a diamond, but they always seem to start locking up well before they should, so I knock off the shine with 320 grit...seems to work on some and not on others...go figure.

    If you're going to continue playing with the Savage, I would invest in a nut wrench and make a receiver holder...I made my "holder" out of scrap steel strap, 3/4" bolts, a couple of springs using a drill press. I will post a pic so you can see how easy and simple. Midway has the nut
    wrench. I have 2 LA and 2 SA Savage receivers and about 2 dozen barrels so I'm swapping things around constantly.

    I would have a 210 or a 220 by now if not for being broke most of the time and spending on other toys and playing...hahahahahahah...I keep looking for a cheap one, tho.

    Today I'm picking up my run of 300-700 gr 20 ga/.625 cal bullets and my mold so I can modify the nose a bit and cast a few.

    You might take a look at a semi-wadcutter nose profile...that edge makes for an excellent "meat cutter"...just like they did for punching paper...cut pointed slugs also do a good job as "cookie cutters".

  5. #25
    I'm trying to find the 51 gr powder used by Win.XP-3 Sabot




    this Win powder falls between Unique and Blue Dot as for as hull space its occupying!

    I only have limited supply of powder and can not identify the powder used, perhaps some one else can.
    Ajay
    Video Memories
    VdoMemorie's-Blazing Sabots
    www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

  6. #26
    The Federal 2 3/4 clear hull on sale for $13.50 if you buy 5 bags primed with
    Fed 209 A magnum primer, you cant beat this deal
    http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Federa ... ?EM120428A
    Ajay
    Video Memories
    VdoMemories Blazing Sabot!
    www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

  7. #27
    Finally got the bolt open and the extractor broken and the hull brass was ripped about 1/2" wide, yet the Fed 209 primer did show no sign of overpressure nor was it flattened!
    Ill be calling Savage first thing monday, Nfg who else makes Savage bolt with a better design
    and yet more stronger bolts, if any.
    I was also wondering what state are you in?
    Ajay
    Video Memories
    VdoMemorie's-Blazing Sabots
    www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

  8. #28
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Northwest corner of Vermont
    Posts
    960
    Are you using any internal pressure measuring instruments (crusher guns, strain gauges)to come up with the loads you are using? In numerous shotshell loading manuals I have seen reference that it is not possible to determine chamber pressures by reading primers or head expansion. Yet that appears to be exactly what you are doing, or trying to do. After tying that bolt gun up I would tend to think you are treading on very thin ice with your experiments.

  9. #29
    Hello Alan, you are very right and it is no doubt we are playing with fire. My gun has no pressure measuring instruments as its a over the counter regular gun but I feel the extractor should not have broken as I would expect it to me hardened!
    I'll post some pictures of the hull etc first thing in the morning!
    Ajay
    Video Memories
    VdoMemorie's-Blazing Sabots
    www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

  10. #30
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    66
    It is NOT THE RIFLE'S STRENGTH OR THE BOLT'S STRENGTH YOU NEED TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT...The Savage will handle as much or more pressure than any other rifle brand. I think you need to step back and re-evaluate what and how you are going about doing your thing. Some of your statements are leading me to believe you might need more study.

    It is the fact that a shotgun case is only designed to handle "normal" shotgun pressures and you EXCEEDED those pressure limits that caused the ruckus...take a look at the LYMAN #4 shotshell reloading handbook and check out the pressures...I didn't find any over 14,000 PSI...I'm guessing that load was WELL above 16KPSI. Ed has posted what he thinks about various shotgun cases and what he thinks is enough pressure. Check out the Accurate Reloading 12GaFH thread.

    Plastic shotwads, types and brands of shotwads, nitro overpowder wads and roll crimps all can affect the pressure

    What you did was exceed the "normal" operating pressures for the case and it just did what cases do when that happens...it RUPTURED. Trying to read pressure from a primer is NOT the way to go...the cases have been telling you all along that you were overpressure but you haven't been listening.

    If you want to continue doing things the way you are I would suggest calling RMC and ordering some brass cases...they are expensive but they won't rupture unless you do something really out of whack.

  11. #31

    I do have the brass cases but the purpose of these test is to find out the limits that we can safely push the loading envelop before things start to give in and then back off for safety margin by using ordinary components, thats one reason the Remington 1100 magnum stays home. Once I find the safety limits then I'll back off some and re test them in Remington for accuracy,my rifled barrel is only .870" at muzzle and the savage is .910" at muzzle!
    Guess what, through all this I'm discovering who all are my true friends as they are through PM supporting my efforts and understand what I'm trying to do!
    Thank you.
    Ajay
    Video Memories
    VdoMemorie's-Blazing Sabots
    www.PreciousVideoMemories.com
    Last edited by SuperBlazingSabots; 04-29-2012 at 08:29 AM.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master kenyerian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    976
    I've been following this thread with great interest and would like to say that you are very brave and generous in sharing your data and pictures. Just a word of CAUTION . Way back in the early 70's I did a lot of trap shooting and I was in a shootoff with a young man who had loaded up some special shells for the longer Range. I forget the exact load but it split his receiver on a 1100. The hull was split but the primer showed no signs of pressure. Over the years I've seen several signs of high pressure loads in shotshells with the case showing the signs before the primer.

  13. #33
    Good morning Kenyerian, I'm by no chance trying to get myself hurt as you will offten notice me saying " your safety comes first "

    The load came from Hodgdon's Reloading 2006 Annual Hand book
    Fed. 2 3/4 Gold Medal 1oz, Win 209 22.8 gr for 1345fps/ 9900psi
    my mistake I switched the following:
    Fio.2 3/4 Brown, I used 440gr bullet and Fed 209 primer and raised the charge to 23.6 and was going to test the second load of 23 gr of H.Clays!
    There is a good chance the Fed 209 primer is much more hotter than Win.209
    I knew it was going to be a hot load but knowing the Savage can easily handle. A lot of oher factors came into play here.
    Ajay
    Video Memories
    VdoMemorie's-Blazing Sabots
    www.PreciousVideoMemories.com
    Last edited by SuperBlazingSabots; 04-29-2012 at 10:57 AM.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master

    tomme boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Clinton, Iowa
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    Federal 209 primers have always been considered the hottest of the standard primers. Fiochi hulls have a couple of differant base wads also.

  15. #35
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    66
    I understand what you are trying to do, but suggest you might be going about it slightly off center. I have no problem with WHAT you are doing...it's the WAY you are doing it. I'm also not whizzing on your leg in any mannor shape or form...just suggesting you need to re-evaluate your procedures.

    Reinventing the wheel is always a good thing but a lot of what you are doing has been done already and many of the "best" powders are known and readily available so in effect you are wasting YOUR VALUABLE TIME AND COMPONENTS retesting those powders...it would behoove you to start with the know "good" powders then work with the components you want to develop in the way YOU want to develop them.

    Anytime you change ANY component in ANY way all the admonitions in EVERY RELOADING manual(everyone that has come down the pike in the last 40 years) has stated, catagorically, DROP THE LOAD AT LEAST 10%...and normal load development dictates changing only ONE component at a time. The only way to evaluate what each change does is to be systematic.

    I've done what you're doing already and so have many others..this is nothing more than wildcatting with a shotgun instead of a rifle... but I also started with the information Ed Hubel and others posted using at least a dozen different weights of slugs, in 4 different 12 ga shotguns, starting 10-15% BELOW what Ed had show was safe then working up slowly. I also worked with roll crimps, star crimps and also a heat crimper I developed from one I found online for 410 shotguns, and also two chrono's, many of the available at that time shot wads and slugs, both of which have seen huge gains in number, shape and availability in the past few years. I can guarantee I could see AND feel the difference a change in components produced.

    As far as the primer differences are concerned you can research that online...comparisons have been done.

    Online friends are no different than true life friends...they will love you to death until you're no longer useful then they will slice you up and BBQ you and say what a nice guy you "were" as they are munching on a BBQ'ed Ajay steak. Sometimes that guy that will stick a icepick in your eye just for kicks will tell you the real truth just because he thinks it will whizz you off. Think of the Bay of Pigs fiasco...all the yes men were bobbing there heads up anhd down at Kennedy instead of grabbing him by his short hairs and telling him to get his head up out of his backside...we almost got into WWIII over that.

    JUST BE CAREFUL and really think over EACH load BEFORE you pull the trigger. There are no excuses in this game...if you mess up you can't blame anyone but yourself and excuses and blame WON'T bring back a mutilated hand, destroyed eye or the dead...period.

  16. #36
    Slug Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    881
    The Fiocchi base cup metal seems softer and cuts easier
    when I section compared to other cases.
    I never loaded any with heavy slow powder loads.
    I've never had the back of Rem/Win/Fed cases flow
    into Savage extractor cuts like in the picture,
    With 15k psi loads in slow powder.
    I've had cases dimple a little just ahead
    of rims on NEF into the singleshot extractor area.
    Now Fiocchi may not do that using slow powders,
    like Steel and 4759. If it was me I'd take out
    broken extractor and test that way, pushing out
    cases after bolt opened with dowell. Leave it that way
    for testing. I did lot of real hairy testing that way.
    I'd like to see same slug/sabot in Fiocchi
    with full load of steel and see if base flows.
    You can't hurt the locking lugs on the savage.

    Now the Fiocchi inside the base I think is fine, as it is
    perfectly level with no recess around the primer, like
    some other cases.

    Some FED primers for reloading are more rounded
    and little harder than REM primers and don't react
    to showing flattening as reliably as REM STS primers
    I like.... For 12 on down I use REM STS primers.
    In guns without super strong firing pins the REMs
    test out on my tests here, as good as the FED Mag ones.
    I even found that the FED 239s I save out of
    10 and 12ga 3.5" cases for 8ga use, seem a little softer
    than FED 209s for reloading. Same with REM primers in
    8ga cases. Ed

  17. #37
    Good morning Ed, this extractor is a joke from the commedy club on Tv

    Shame on Savage for not having changed the design like you already said in the above post!

    the remington extractor is not only thicker and stronger but also hardened, where as the Savage extractor is brittle and made of softer material!
    Ajay
    Video Memories
    VdoMemorie's-Blazing Sabots
    www.PreciousVideoMemories.com
    Last edited by SuperBlazingSabots; 04-30-2012 at 12:04 PM.

  18. #38
    Here are two loads that did very well in my tests besides others.
    1. I'm not trying to match factory velocity which is mostly measured from a 30 inch barrel,
    but trying to get up close to it but with a 24 inch barrel that any loader with a regular
    modern barrel can load.

    A load 5:
    12Ga. 3inch Fiocchi. Fio. 616 44gr of A.Steel. 450 gr .510” bullet, X12X, .170” Nitro card, Fold Crimp Good!
    ****Tested Giving 1724,1677fps Extraction marks, hard extraction!! Next try 44.5 and 45 gr of Steel with 405 gr bullet and finally 360 gr bullet for optimum velocity!!!!


    B load 18:
    12Ga.2 3/4 Fiocchi CCI. 209 M 45 gr of A.Steel 460 gr HB. of .575-460, PC +.125-20 ga + .170“ nitro, Accu Tip Sabot!!! 6 point fold crimp! Good crimp Index CGH to gr.
    ****Tested at the range with extraction marks, one hung, giving 1652, 1620 fps!!! Next try lighter bullet!!!!!
    Please ue this information for reference only and at your own risk if you were to try them!
    The chrono at times failed to measure the velocity.
    Ajay
    Video Memories
    VdoMemorie's-Blazing Sabots
    www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

  19. #39
    There is a good chance the Fed 209 primer is much more hotter than Win.209
    If they are federal 209's they are about the same strength as Winchester 209's, but if they are federal 209A's you definitely don't want to to sub them for any other 209 primer.

  20. #40
    Hello UniqueDot, its a Fed.209 primer for sure and not by mistake a Fed.209A a heavy magnum one!
    500 Fed. Hulls with Fed.209A primers are on the way.

    Just finished casting some bullets that I was out of specially the 360 gr and 400 gr, hoping to make it back to the range with a broken extractor but thanks to Ed I'll be using the wooden dowel to push the hulls back out till the replacement arrives.
    Plan to try more 360 gr bullets for faster moving loads and some 400 gr bullets first thing in the morning at the range with a chrono!

    Ajay
    Video Memories
    VdoMemorie's-Blazing Sabots
    www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check