The story behind small primers in .45 ACP

[DRNurse1]

Rumor has it that small rifle primers are the same diameter and height as small pistol primers. If this is the case, maybe it provides another reason to convert to small primers in the 45ACP cartridge: one can reload more cartridges with small primer pockets.

As far as reliability and quality, both will shake out as demand for the cases changes.

Right now, I sort out my field brass and give the SPP 45 ACP brass to a friend who uses them exclusively. I also catch my brass in Bulls Eye Competition so I do not have to sort it. At some point, I will likely reload the SPP 45 and then try to figure out a good way to manage that. Hopefully you all can solve this issue before I encounter it.

Rock and roll, keep the lead headed down range.

DRNurse1

[kappy]

When I get a piece of .45ACP brass with a small primer pocket, I get so incensed, I just toss it in the garbage.

[44man]

44Man,
I am interested in the group sizes before and after SP especially in the 1911. What bullet was you using and what load?
I shoot Bullseye pistol and would be interested in your load development. Could you share.

The revolver was crazy with 6" patterns at 25 yards from the bench. I got it to an inch easy with the primer change. We used cast but my friend has the info for the loads, I will see if I can get them for you. I do not own an ACP.
The 1911 is one I built for him long ago and would do 1/2" at 30 yards. It actually shot better with the SP primer. The auto is not as touchy as the revolver and can do well with the LP primer. The difference in an auto is so small it can be ignored but in a revolver, it can be a huge difference. It is the same reason I use a standard primer in the .44 mag.
Let me see if he will answer E mail with loads. I have not heard from him, he was supposed to come and shoot.

[JIMinPHX]

I used some of the Small Primer .45ACP brass when the big primer shortage hit, right after BO got elected. I used WSP primers with the same Bullseye load data that I had used with WLP primers in the past. Everything still shot fine.

These days, the only place that I see the SP .45 cases coming from is the "lead free" or "green" ammo that costs about 3 times what it should. In days gone by, some of the foreign military surplus .45 ammo came in with small primer pockets too.

[dragon813gt]

The SP cases are in every box of Federal at Wal-Mart(and every other store that sells it). I'm starting to get more SP range pickups. Used to never get any. Sometimes it's in the range of 65-75%.


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[375RUGER]

I just found out yesterday while teaching a young fella how to load some 45, that I've been picking up SP .45s at the range. PITA now I have to sort out what I have on hand. From now on though I'll sort right after I pick it up.

[tinsnips]

I just came from a store called Runnings an all there Federal and Blazer Brass 45acp had small primers . I wish they would just leave stuff alone .

[Alan in Vermont]

I'm going to have some to try out from a PIF I snagged. Will be interesting at the very least. I want to build up stash of it so I can load a few hundred rounds to take to a pig roast this fall. There is a bunch of shooting done there but it's all on grass and a lot of brass gets lost. If I don't care for how it loads/shoots I won't feel bad about not retrieving it all.

[44man]

44Man,
I am interested in the group sizes before and after SP especially in the 1911. What bullet was you using and what load?
I shoot Bullseye pistol and would be interested in your load development. Could you share.

We went from 3" and even 6" at times, down to 1" at 25 yards with the revolver.
I do not own a .45 ACP and have E mailed my friend for the loads and will post as soon as he reads it. He never seems to read mail.
The 1911 only showed a small improvement, the revolver was the worst and showed a vast benefit.
I will get back.

[9.3X62AL]

I'm prepared to believe that 45 ACP cases ignited by SPPs have better accuracy potential--a couple friends with GOOD 45 ACP pistols saw immediate improvements in accuracy and ballistic consistency with their use.

Will I make a wholesale shift to that case type? Doubtful, unless component and ammo makers shift completely to SPP pockets in 45 ACP brass.

[44man]

OK, John sent the loads. He uses a 255 gr boolit, 5 gr of Unique and a SP primer.
Nothing real special. I do not know the boolit but I will find out.

[Boneguru]

Just returned form the range today and the armorer handed out the green frangible 45 ACP with the small primer. Small primer was the first thing I noticed since they are packaged primer up. At first I thought i had grabbed the 40 S&W ammo by mistake.
The projectile was interesting, the accuracy at 25 yds was not as good as the ball that we normally use for training. I will try to load some of the brass if i ever get any to work with, such a low pressure round that there is room to play. the BBL was noticably more filthy though.... any way no Fail to Feed Fail to Fire issues, and alongside the ball ammo there was no difference in the ammo, just accuracy which I attribute to the projectile which didn't even look concentric to the naked eye!

[Frank46]

I remember when the winchester NT primed ammunition came out. Everyone that I knew scrounged 45acp brass and we were curious about the rather large flash hole. General consensus was just load them with standard large pistol primers. Never had any complaints about accuracy. I have a 40mm ammo can full of mostly rem and win brass and a couple cardboard boxes of speer and sellier & bellot brass. I like to keep the S&B brass separate as sometimes I'll have to run a primer pocket reamer through some and once that is done they load just like normal brass. What I like to do is deprime on a single stage press using a universal de capping dies, then clean the pockets, tumble (nothing like a tumbler full of shiney brass) and prime separately before they go through the dillon. easier with multiple inspections to weed out those that are bad. Frank

[Smiddywesson]

Correct me if I', mistaken, but .454 Casull uses small RIFLE primers. The small primers were purportedly used to make the .454 case stronger. More pressure usually means more velocity, so I don't see how you are getting the same velocity with the small .45 primers, other testing I've read about, see Starline brass article on their site, are reporting @100 fps more velocity and a cleaner burn with the original large primers. A lot of forum posts concern dirty results, and when they reload around the problem by changing powders, poorer performance. Frankly, there's a lot of hype out there about "Today's modern ____ technology." This line is used to convince ignorant consumers that 9mm is the same as .45. Sure, that CAN be true if you dumb down the .45 by loading it subsonic, which is exactly what they are doing here by loading it with small primers. This industry is full of smoke and mirrors, and this is just another example of what passes for "modern technology."

PS: .357 loads were substantially dumbed down from the original loads, thereby allowing for the switch to small primers.

[44man]

Primers have always been a thorn in my side and I never quit working them. Same in the .44 mag, LP works with every powder best and never a need for a LP mag. Pressure before ignition is not good. The LP in an ACP case is just too much initial pressure in the tiny case. Remember the case was used in a 1911 or Thompson so rifling held bullets back but that does not work in a revolver.
I don't think the LP is right and I don't thing a SR primer is right in the .454 either. There is always a right primer.
I rely on tests and experience for thousands of primer tests with every caliber to see where a change is needed. I don't even like the LR in a .500 S&W, LP mag is still best. Just why did they go different?

[10-x]

Thanks for this thread. Picked up a box of Federal Ball from wally world, did not open the box and check until home, wa- la, small primers. Waiting for someone to comment, now this is the big question, having several 1000 pieces of LP .45 ACP brass and the new is store bought in 50 round boxes, another step in sorting, prep and making sure they stay separate. Is it worth it?

[Artful]

It's not for me - I have less than 1% of something weird, they get sorted out and recycle canned.

[twc1964]

I use both app and lol 45 cap cases. Using 6.0 grains of wsf powder with Lee 452-230 tc. I get nearly identical groupings from either primer size. I shoot mainly combat style and not bench testing the gun except when I test the new loads. Ymmv

[twc1964]

Darn phone, I meant large pistol and small pistol primers in my post. Gotta fix this spellcheck thing

[ole 5 hole group]

I don't waste my time with 45ACP small primer cases either. Don't think for one minute if the small primer case gave better accuracy than the large primer case in the 45 ACP - our Service Teams would be shooting nothing but SPP'ed 45 ACP cases - they are NOT, so that should speak volumes about the accuracy question in a 1911. They may shoot just as well, but surely not any better.