accuracy standard at 100

[mike in co]

i will grant you that there are limits of the eyeball...but its very small.
in true benchrest competition....targets are measured by the second method or similar, and then checked. when a record is believed to be set the targets are sent off to a committee.......it is actually amazing the small variation one comes up with when you have done it a few( hundred) times. br results are often seen in 4 decimal places.....this is an average of 5 three decimal targets......not an actual 4th decimal measurement.
and for the record a 308 bullet/or boolit does not always make a 308 dia hole......lots of variables there....but it is accepted as part of the game.

your 'ACCURACY" is your guns average...not the one time wonder group.


and since when is a 45 460 ??? 452 and 454 but not seen a 460 actual dia ???

[Pat I.]

Cmon lets not get goofy here. 45 cal rifles are .458 so I just rounded up to .460 to make it easy. The guy's shooting a 480 gr bullet so I just assumed it wasn't a handgun. I know i know assuming things gets you in trouble.

I was the director of registered competition for the CBA for 5 years so measured a lot of potential record targets. After a while the groups got so small, and I got so lazy, that I implemented something along the lines of jacketed BR competition where 3 guys measured the groups and the average was the result. It was the same three guys every time and they all had good solid equipment and the difference went a little farther than the 4th digit. To think that you're going to be able to measure two holes in a piece of paper to the 4th digit is a pipe dream since getting an accurate reading to the 2nd is more voodoo than science.

If people are going to get so anal about a couple of thousandths you're gonna to take the fun right out of this stuff.

[Newtire]

Top 5 reasons I see for guys having problems with cast:

1. Failure to clean all the copper out prior to getting started. (Impatience)

2. Poor bullet design / weight for the throat / rifling configur

4. Impatience reloading. More care IS required than loading jacketed. (Crappy quality ammo is probably the biggest reason over all) Try explaining that one to an "expert" reloader!

5. Less concentration shooting because cast is cheap and fun compared to expensive jacketed where you work at good groups.

98% of the game of cast is "patience" and solving problems that "WE" create. Familiarity breeds complacency. Why I regularly find myself guilty of creating problems from time to time.

I find the thiing about patience and care being my downfall or savior depending on which way I loaded the ammo. I get fairly good results with mass loaded .30 carbine for instance but if I make sure things are the same in each load, I can shrink those groups from 2" to 1" @ 50 yds. Certain boolits shoot better in certain guns because they fit. My .30-30's seem to shoot cast better. The RCBS 165 silhouette shoots great in a M70 and an FN .30-06 but not in a Springfield. The 311290 shoots great in the Springfield but not that great in the M-70 or FN. There's the matter of taking your sweet time and loading a cast bullet with all cases trimmed equal length, same brass (of course). I haven't been able to beat my best J-word group yet and don't expect to but can certainly come close. Just take time to do all the things people do with jacketted and use a good lube, bullet fits bore and good design to begin with-yeah...all the things Bass already said.

[David R]

Holy cow, I haven't been here in a while. I read almost da whole thing.

To answer the original question, for ME 1" @ 50 yards is what I expect. My savage 24V will do that with cast. It turns into 4" to 6" at 100 yards. That is my worse one. I have 2 scoped rifles that will approach 1" at 100. Just enough to tease me.

David

[williamwaco]

"Only accurate rifles are interesting"

Townsend Whelen (March 6, 1877 - December 23, 1961)

Colonel, United States Army.
Contributing editor to
Sports Afield,
American Rifleman,
Field and Stream,
Outdoor Life,
Guns and Ammo,
and other magazines.
Author of Telescopic Rifle Sights,
The Hunting Rifle,
Small Arms and Ballistics,
Hunting Big Game,
and Why Not Load Your Own.


Those are credentials I am not going to question.

IMO 2" = "Minute of soup can"

[Newtire]

really depends on rifle as has been said. I think just around an inch is great for big game type bolt gun. Less than that for target rifle .257 I have. Winchester lever action rifle, hoping for 2" but 3" will do.

[Harter66]

My old man gives me hell for being content w/1 1/2 ""j" groups at 100 ,well I pulled my hair out to get the hunting rifle I could afford to shoot those little bitty groups. Somewhere in my stuff I've the targets from 3 days, a hot dry afternoon,warm wet morning,and a not quite cold typical sunrise,each are 5 shots inch are less than 1.1 outside ............................. somewhere along the way some "old guy" pointed out that those were amazing .8" groups , not really needed for the hunting field unless I planned on shooting well over 400yd and computing drop in feet for every shot ..............in the field,rain,snow,wind,heat,cold. Something clicked that day when I resized I'm not taking that 400yd shot that I may or may not be able to make simply because if I muck it up I might follow that animal for a day or more only to find it ruined and/or half eaten by something else, then explain to a warden, why I'm all bloodied up w/a fresh carcass Monday night after the season closed. I intend to take my next big game animal w/cast ,so I expect my boolits,rifle,and self to meet the 2" standard every time.

Have you ever overlaid all of your targets from 1 gun for, in my case,5 range sessions w/say a dozen different loads, centered on a separate target? When I did that I "discovered" a 4" group of over 100 rounds . It is my believe that many of us are so fixed on that tiny little cluster that over look our and our loads/rifles abilities until some "old guy" says some magic phrase that hits home like a brick through a plate glass window. Thanks to all the old guys!

[Dframe]

With my old eyes and even older 45/70 rifle I can hit minute of deer at 100 yards. Probably about 3 inches with iron sights.

[bowfin]

I prefer my scoped big game rifles hold a 1½" three shot group. That's not so hard to do, and I find I am chasing after rainbows instead of practicing my offhand shooting if I try for much more.

Varmint rifles, for coyotes and/or prairie dogs, I woul prefer a scoped rifle that can shoot MOA or better for three shots.

I usually find that most rifles will shoot better than I can, although there has been a few disappointments to that rule.

[Echo]

Actually, no standard. Just the best Professor Gun will shoot, given as much experimentation as I choose to indulge in.

[Canuck Bob]

I like to be able to hit a moose. When I was younger it was a 6" baby moon hubcap, remember those, I carried in my woods loafing pack and hung from trees. I've always lived near and worked in abundant Crown forest.

That would be about 3 MOA, usually off hand or field rest as available. Also point of aim and impact had to be the same within the trajectory curve when shooting paper. A 1" group 3.5" high at a 100 yards is a bunch of misses in hunting. The best group peppers the target center from point blank to 200 yards, my limit for hunting. That is when load, rifle and shooter are dialed in and deadly.

When I scoped my 444 Marlin it printed tight 100 yard 3 shot groups, say 1 1/2-2 inches. When I went back to my peep the Williams wasn't as fool proof as they brag about!

Standards then, 2-3 MOA to 200 meters under field conditions, 3-5 shot group from a cold barrel, and the understanding of the loads trajectory and training to put the group in the center of the target from point blank to max range. From what I've studied this is achievable and my goal with cast bullets and some broad skill development and lots of shooting in the woods.

It also represents a good set of skills for any hunter. Yet far too often talk of MOA at the range is confused by new hunters as adequate training. It is merely dialing in the equipment not the whole package if hunting is the end point. It is balanced by the old hands driving placement first in hunting like fit the bullet first in cast shooting.

[303Guy]

I'm happy with 1 MOA but reality dictates 1½ MOA is actually pretty good. My goal is MOA or better. I can actually hit something if my rifle shoots straight - my error added to rifle error don't do well in the field when my targets are small! Accurate rifles and loads do a lot for confidence.

I like the way Boomer Mikey puts it. Sewer pipe bores can shoot but I've only done it using paper patch boolits. Fire-lapping seems to work wonders.

What 45 2.1 has achieved is absolutely astounding and an inspiration!

[9.3X62AL]

Roger that, 303 Guy. His work is masterful.

Now that the doctors are about done having their way with me, I'm hoping to extend the capabilities of my castings in 9.3mm for a Canada hunt this Fall.

[243winxb]

The average factory rifle, out of the box, will average just under 2" for all shots fired when shooting 5 shot groups at 100 yds.

[HollowPoint]

"Only accurate rifles are interesting"

Townsend Whelen (March 6, 1877 - December 23, 1961)



Back when I was as "Poor As a Church Mouse" and I used to dream of being able to afford a decent rifle, I read this comment made by Townsend Whelen.

At the time I thought this was the absolute height of arrogance.

Now, having aged passed the half-century mark and earned enough here and there to be able to afford a "Decent Rifle," I've come to realize what Mr. Whelen was talking about.

Ironically, if I knew back then what I know now about accurizing my old rifles I wouldn't of had to wait till I reached my 50's to have an accurate rifle.

I shoot for 0ne inch or less; even with my old milsurp rifles shooting cast bullets. That doesn't mean I always attain that goal but why strive for less when more accuracy is alway possible given enough time and effort.

All my modern rifles (Tikka, Savage, Remington) are tack drivers but, I only shoot Jacketed through them.

Still working my K31 and my Enfield. The best I've done with them so far are tight clusters and a flyer or two to open them up to two inches or so.

HollowPoint

[white eagle]

for my 220 swift ai rite about a 1/2" at 100 yd.
280 ai look for bout an inch
cast rifle (358 win,35 Whelen) 1-1.5"
pistol at the moment I don't shoot that fer 50 yds is where I practice

[HangFireW8]

Still working my K31 and my Enfield. The best I've done with them so far are tight clusters and a flyer or two to open them up to two inches or so.

Do you have something like the RCBS Case Master to measure boolit runout? My unexplained flyers went away once I started using one. Now a gun either groups or it doesn't, if it doesn't it needs work (or really hates that load.)

-HF

[HollowPoint]

"Do you have something like the RCBS Case Master to measure boolit runout? My unexplained flyers went away once I started using one. Now a gun either groups or it doesn't, if it doesn't it needs work (or really hates that load.)

-HF"


The short answer to your question is No; I don't have one of those but, I do have a couple of gauges for checking the runout on my mill and lathe. I think I might be able to use them to check for any runout.

I never thought of doing that before. I'll have to give that a try.

Something else I've decided to do just to mitigate as much my own human error in my shooting and load work-up sessions is to use a mechanical rifle rest with a remote trigger.

I had the last three days off this week so I used that time to modify my old metal rifle rest. It's now ready to go as soon as I can get away to the shooting range.

With this mechanical rifle rest and remote trigger; along with checking the runout on my loaded bullets as you've mentioned should, at the very least, leave me with no excuses. They'll either shoot or they won't.

HollowPoint

[barrabruce]

For Plain cast light loads I aim for 1" or around that.
Just shot 3x into .3" at 100yrds!!!! Luck maybe!!!!
Whoopydoo.
Paper patching still working on it but 1 1/2 to 2" pretty easy to obtain.
Althou I can't do that great with flat out loads in my gun.
My best bet for hunting would be as far as I could "comfortably" shoot with the "First shot ...cleaned ..cold bore ..shot"
To me everything else seems academic if that's all I end up getting.
Haven't hunted for years but.
No use waiting for the 2 or 3rd shot to get the bore conditioned bag something.

I plan on doing a target over time with my first and second shots to see how they group. Fly!!!

Mechanical rifle rest Hmmmm
Just when I was getting my shaking and jerking the trigger co-ordinated.

Barra

[XWrench3]

to me, it does not matter if the projectile is cast, swaged, or jacketed. one inch ot better is always the goal. i have one load for my 300 win mag that is .628" group @ 199 yards, and i am trying to improve on that. i am also trying to get another boolit (heavier) to do the same in the same gun.