Please tell me your accuracy standard at 100
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one inch
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Please tell me your accuracy standard at 100
Accuracy standards depend on which rifle and for what use?
Last edited by Char-Gar; 04-02-2007 at 05:03 PM.
Chargar, you just read my mind.
One of my personal standards is the RWVA Rifleman Standard. That's 4 MOA. Think 20 inches at 500 meters. The wifth of a human body, though we're not militia types. Many of us are ex-military over there, and we practice on the 25 meter reduced Army Qualification Course, usually using Battle Rifles (though almost anything could be used, and welcome). The standard for decent shooting on that is 4 MOA, or 1 inch at 25 meters.
Me personally If my Milsurp rifles will shoot better than regular ball ammo that it was designed to shoot ,Im a happy camper .Basicly 3-4 moa with open sights works for me.
If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!
Little Joe
Got to agree with Charger and others; Accuracy standard? it depends. Perhaps a better querry would be to establish a 100 yard accuracy criteria for rifles; 3, 5 or 10 shot groups? Then establish a descriptive measurement; (suggesting only as an example) 1 MOA or under = excellent, 1.1 to 2.5 MOA = good, 2.6 to 4 MOA = OK and over 4 MOA as "keep trying".
Larry Gibson
This is what I use:
In reasonable conditions, shooting cast bullets, from a good bench rest position, shooting two five shot groups and sighters/foulers at 100 yards in fifteen minutes or less, using a telescopic sight:
-An average for five groups of five shots of between 1.5 and 2 inches is good accuracy-suitable for most offhand shooting.
-An average between 1 and 1.5 inches is excellent accuracy- suitable for the best offhand shooting and good bench rest shooting.
-An average of one inch or less is superior accuracy- rifle/load combinations achieving this will frequently place “in the money” at bench rest matches.
An experienced shooter can do almost as well with good iron sights.
My experience is that most any rifle in good condition will shoot average 2" groups or better. Sometimes a long search, but they'll do it.
In the long run, shooting 5 5 shot groups, the smaller group in the 5 will be half the size of the larger group. Hence, one five shot group proves nothing, unless it's WAY big.
At the 2006 CBA Nationals in Oregon, for the 100 yard five shot group competitors who finished all the five shot matches and excluding the Long Range Hand gunners-all other classes-, the average five shot 100 yard group was .990".
joe brennan
With a scope, my .358 Win's will go into an inch, for ten shots. With apertures, generally, around 2" or less. Eyes are the limiting factor for me. This is my most accurate bore size, although my Sharps will stay in about 1.5" with the Soule sights.
I am looking for one inch groups but I not got them yet?People have told me cast will shoot with a jacketed bullet but I have found they wont.Ive shot with a bunch of cast bullet shooters too.Yoe will hear big stories from them but when it comes down to it at the range the results are always the same.
My two and two and one half inch groups are ok for these free bullets but I was in hopes for more.
I will just keep blasting the cast out there until I get the results I am looking for.
Out of here Little Joe
Joe,Originally Posted by Little Joe
It all depends. I tried to think of a definition since we all have something different in mind.
A pretty good rule of thumb for cast bullet accuracy is you can expect what your rifle will do with jacketed on a consistent basis. You won't be able to reach those velocities in a lot of cases, but peak to peak accuracy ought to be very close.
Scoped or open sights, if you shoot 4" groups with jacketed, then you ought to see 4" from cast. If you get one hole with jacketed each and every day, then you ought to be able to come real close with cast on a fairly consistent basis once you learn what you are doing and get things ironed out.
In some calibers and rifle types, cast will actually outperform jacketed mostly because of less heat from bore friction. So rifle types, like levers, that don't have one piece bedded stocks to control barrel vibration, can shoot better with cast once you get them set up correctly. Hell, I got a Marlin 44 Mag I am working on that is 1" now on a fairly consistent basis and sometimes MUCH better. Rivals some bolt guns as long as I take my time and give the barrel a chance to cool. Don't do those things and it's 2".
Top 5 reasons I see for guys having problems with cast:
1. Failure to clean all the copper out prior to getting started. (Impatience)
2. Poor bullet design / weight for the throat / rifling configuration.
3. Poor bullet fit when they do get a good design.
4. Impatience reloading. More care IS required than loading jacketed. (Crappy quality ammo is probably the biggest reason over all) Try explaining that one to an "expert" reloader!
5. Less concentration shooting because cast is cheap and fun compared to expensive jacketed where you work at good groups.
98% of the game of cast is "patience" and solving problems that "WE" create. Familiarity breeds complacency. Why I regularly find myself guilty of creating problems from time to time.
Personally, after I review each of those 5 problem areas, if it's a rifle and won't hold 1", I take some action to lap or scrap the barrel if it's a cast gun. Bolt, lever, whatever. A bad rifle should shoot cast well at cast velocities. In my mind, the difference between a so so cast rifle and a good one is at what velocity range the accuracy remains up to.
Last edited by Bass Ackward; 04-03-2007 at 12:04 PM.
For scoped rifles I want at least 1 1/2" at 100 yards. For iron sights I am looking for 2 1/2" as that is about all my eyes are really good far any more. In days past I figured a peep ought to group as well as a scope but not any more. In military rifles with standard sights anything under 3" is good to go.
Jacketed bullets are more accurate than cast, almost always. Particularly target bullets in those green boxes. You can take a new Savage 12 and shoot jacketed bullets into 1" or less real quick. 5,5 shot 100 yard groups. The modern BR records demonstrate the superior accuracy of modern jacketed bullets. I don't know what you're shooting 2 1/2" groups from with cast. Anything other than a modern good condition bolt gun is a crap shoot.
Jacketed bullet accuracy is the goal, in CB shooting. One of the big unanswered questions is: "Why don't CBs shoot as accurately as Jacketed?". I think that many of us are searching for the answer.
joe brennan
Joe-
If what you say is true, then how did this happen?
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=14470
I working on it too.
Just picked up another 1000 lbs of lead yesterday.My total weight of wheel weights,type metal and soft lead is over 3000 lbs now.I hope i can get some one inch groups before I use all this lead up.
Out of here,
Little Joe
It depends
Too many variables exist to give a single answer to this question.
Would it be fair to say that good groups with Jword bullets are twice as easy to obtain? Not really, it depends there too.
I have a Marlin 1895 cowboy in 45-70 that shoots cast so well it’s scary. I didn't need to work very hard to get it to shoot 1" or better groups but it does... with plain base bullets too. Why? - The bore and chamber were perfect. Pushing a pure lead slug though the bore was unremarkable with a small amount of taper to a perfect crown at the muzzle. My Marlin 38-55 cowboy is almost as good with 1-1/2” groups and a less than perfect bore with a slight constriction at the receiver end of the barrel due to thread crush and a ding in one of the lands at the crown.
My experience is somewhat limited to the 35, 38, 44 and 45 calibers with cast because they rank high on my fun meter (lever guns) and life's too short to fool around with stuff that isn't fun.
I've tried to "make" cheap, standard production guns shoot cast using 1" groups as a standard of comparison at 100 yards and I was disappointed with my results for years. I thought I knew enough to make it happen, but I didn't know beans about it then.
I read Veral Smith’s book and found it confusing and too technical at the time. For me, Marshall Stanton's book (Beartooth Bullets Technical Guide) unlocked the door to success. Not that I followed every word as gospel but Marshall’s description about barrel condition made a connection for me that Veral’s book didn’t. Since then, learning how to use a micrometer correctly, slugging bores, making pound slugs of chambers and taking careful measurements has provided answers needed to make a reasonable evaluation of a particular gun’s potential with cast bullets.
After fire lapping a few very rough guns and fitting bullets to those guns then evaluating a few more guns with a minimalist approach to fire lapping did I come to following conclusions:
Until you understand the relationship of bullet fit, chamber, and bore condition, success will be a matter of luck and/or disappointment.
If you aren’t going to take/make measurements for each gun, clean/lap the barrel to produce a smooth clean surface, then size/fit bullets to the gun’s chamber/bore expect lazy accuracy.
Lousy, corncob rough barrels with constrictions can improve dramatically with a minimal amount of fire lapping or hand lapping.
Shooting jacketed bullets to smooth a rough bore does nothing for rough grooves.
Bad/undersize chambers and/or 0.400” long throats = bad accuracy.
Now you get to become a modern marvel of reloading consistency with attention to fine details, but that’s another chapter in the quest for 1” groups with cast bullets.
Then there’s the shooter, another variable in the equation. If a gun is capable of shooting 2-1/2" groups consistently, can the shooter consistently shoot 2-1/2” groups? There was a time when I could shoot 5 or more 1”, 100 yard groups in a row but no more. Having a friend loan you his rifle that he shot 3 sub 1” groups in a row with, and watching yourself double the size of those groups can be an experience to remember, or worse, having your buddy shoot ½” groups with your 1” grouping rifle.
So, what’s the answer to the original question? It depends on your own opinion of what works for you. I agree with Larry Gibson's comments about accuracy standards but enjoy trying to achieve the impossible.
There are good days and better days at the range and matches but lousy groups and missed targets are better than no groups and no targets to shoot at.
Boomer
Last edited by Boomer Mikey; 04-04-2007 at 11:09 AM.
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Lever Guns are my Passion!
SASS Life 37141
IHMSA 33587
Many variables in the answer, but for apeture sights at 100 with BPCR, I like to see under 2". With optics, anything over an inch gets more work to get it down to MOA. That is with the 10 shot group standard applied. For K98's and such, under 2 MOA is typically very good, but if using glass, I revert back to striving for the 1" wonder. Leverguns get a bit of latitude, but so far I have not been disappointed too badly. My 1895 will stay in 2" on a regular basis when I do my part. That is easily in the 4-5 MOA at 200yds and that is farther than most shots at game in this area, excluding groundhogs of course.
SS
NRA Life Member Since 1981
"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"-- George Washington
II Corinthians 4:8-9. We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted but not forsaken, struck down, but not destroyed."
Psalms 25:2 O my God, I trust in thee: let me not be ashamed, let not mine enemies triumph over me.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Got to agree with Larry Gibson, particularly when it comes to defining accuracy with 3,5, and 10 shot groups. Some of the old timers used to shoot as much as 50 shot groups. Have seen reprints of some of them that were under 2". I have shot 25 shot groups just to determine consistancy with a couple of rifles including a good 222, and was pleased when it and I stayed under 2". The consistancy of the loads have a major part of accuracy, but when the number of shots fired into a group goes up, it is my experiance that the size of the group will go up as well.
1Shirt!
After fire lapping a few very rough guns and fitting bullets to those guns then evaluating a few more guns with a minimalist approach to fire lapping did I come to following conclusions:
Until you understand the relationship of bullet fit, chamber, and bore condition, success will be a matter of luck and/or disappointment. This is very true. Too many people try different boolits and components trying to find what the old scheutzen shooters called their trick which when found was closely guarded.
If you aren’t going to take/make measurements for each gun, clean/lap the barrel to produce a smooth clean surface, then size/fit bullets to the gun’s chamber/bore expect lazy accuracy.
Usually true, but boolit alloy changes can be a big help here.
Lousy, corncob rough barrels with constrictions can improve dramatically with a minimal amount of fire lapping or hand lapping.
Yep
Shooting jacketed bullets to smooth a rough bore does nothing for rough grooves.
Bad/undersize chambers and/or 0.400” long throats = bad accuracy. These can be beat.
Now you get to become a modern marvel of reloading consistency with attention to fine details, but that’s another chapter in the quest for 1” groups with cast bullets. Balancing the load for the conditions you put forth in the load will do wonders.
So, what’s the answer to the original question? It depends on your own opinion of what works for you. I agree with Larry Gibson's comments about accuracy standards but enjoy trying to achieve the impossible. It's not impossible! Understanding the whole thing though is problematical for a lot of people. In most any rifle, any group over 5 shots is not testing accuracy so much as learning what to do to maintain a reasonable group when your barrel is heating up and starting to walk. Very few barrels are stable at this point. If you use a spotting scope and shoot one shot every 30 seconds to a minute for 3 to 10 shot groups, you will see about the same group and individual shot placement for any numbered shot in the subsequent groups if you technique is good.
There are good days and better days at the range and matches but lousy groups and missed targets are better than no groups and no targets to shoot at.
Boomer
I didn't take the poll. I would "take gas" if my Schuetzen rifle averaged much over ½" at 100 yards. However, my standard for pistols and revolvers is 1" at 25 yards. I don't always reach it...
If I shot cast in a military rifle, I would be happy with 2" (with a scope) or so. MY TC Pistols will shoot to the limit of my seeing (with a 2 power scope about the best I can do is 1.5-2" at 100 yards - that is about the limit of what I can see).
So, it all depends on what a person is using and what is the purpose of the exercise...
Dale53
It depends on what type of rifle we're talking about. An iron-sighted levergun giving 2" groups with castings at 100 yards would be GREAT, EXEMPLARY. A scoped bolt gun doing the same thing might not be so impressive. So when my CZ-550 places five 270 grain flatnoses going 1700 FPS into 1.25" repeatedly at 100 yards, I am a pretty happy shooter. Similarly, when unscaled/eyeballed boolits go between 1.00" and 1.25" at 100 yards from my ragged old Rem 788 in 243, life is good. Most of my rifles aren't quite that good--and I certainly am not.
I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.
How? It's called "shot luck".
Most people shoot smaller groups than I do.
I'm eager to pay $25 for a target for the book cover. A cast bullet target, any sights, 5 shots, 5 groups, 100 yards, averaging under 1.5", with description of the load and rifle.
I just reviewed the 2006-2002 CBA National Match results, and it is clear, at least to me, that it is fairly difficult to average <.6" for four 5 shot 100 yard SS rifle plain based bullet groups. The average of the averages is much larger.
It is also clear, at least, again, to me, that it is difficult to average <1" for four 5 shot "Production" class rifle groups.
All under CBA N. match conditions.
Averages are different from those "wallet" groups.
I just got back from the range, and tomorrow will post the groups I shot today. I think it would be interesting to see the results, in one place, of our shooting.
joe brennan
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