Model 14 30 Remington

[madsenshooter]

OK, it's not a lever action, but it is tube fed. I've developed some interest in getting one that's 100yrs old shooting decent. Towards that end I slugged the bore the other day, made some good impact slugs of throat and muzzle. I had to clean what had to have been nearly the whole 100yrs worth of carbon fouling out of the barrel first.

The throat of the rifle was still very short, the lands very sharp. Rifling was 7 groove, 1/12 twist. Lands were only about half the thickness of a Krag's lands and the grooves were gently rounded from the tops of the lands down to the bottom. Bore measured .303" and groove diameter is .3105-.311", with the absolute back of the throat being .312". With an odd number of lands and grooves I had expected the larger bore and luckily ordered one of NOE's 311440 molds with the larger .303 nose.

I've been forewarned by a fellow who works on 14s and 141s exclusively that cast bullets are a no no, so I just have to make it work. The 311440 has a large meplat and comparing it's dimensions to the throat slug, appears it ought to fit and feed fine, long as the bullet's hard enough to take the beating in the tube. If ever a bullet was designed specifically for this rifle, this has to be it. Considering the fact that the rifle was much used by the folks at home during times that jacketed bullets couldn't be had, it might very well have been designed for the Model 14 by Ideal. I also have NOE's SAECO 315 copy with a .304" top band coming. It might work, depending on how the .17" meplat works in the tube.

I had to shoot up some old Remington ammo the other day to get reloadable cases. I noticed that old ammo, made in CT had a .303" diameter band about 3/32" tall ahead of the crimping groove to lessen the jump before the bullet received guidance from the rifling and they don't have far to jump at all. Newer ammo, made in AR didn't have this band. Didn't have time to compare the two, but wasn't happy with the 50yd accuracy of the bullet with the band. Might have held 3-4". I can do better than that with some of my smooth bore slug guns!

Judging by the sharp lands, short throat, and outside condition of the rifle it has probably been carried more than it has been shot. The muzzle needs recrowned, appears to have some cleaning rod wear, despite being a takedown model that can be cleaned from the breech. That probably didn't help the accuracy of the undersize for the bore bullets.

[elk hunter]

I have given some thought to shooting cast through my model 14, 30 Remington, but haven't gotten around to it. Do let us know how they work in yours.

[Char-Gar]

I have a transition model 14/141 in 30 Rem., sitting in the shop rack waiting it's turn. The guy I got it from (Glen Fryxell) said he could not get it to work with cast unless the bullet was seated very deep so only the nose was out of the case neck. An examination of the rifle tells me, as previously noted, there is zero throat, just a bevel at the end of the chamber/start of the barrel. My plan is to take a throating reamer and put a throat where Remington should have done it in the first place. From there on out, it is just bullet fit as usual. If the Grim Reaper doesn't get me first, I will get er done.

[madsenshooter]

You have to be careful with the OAL charger, so as not to cause jamming in the tube when the cartridge is lifted, and the point has to be rounded enough that it doesn't snag under the cartridge in front. Back when this rifle was made there was a lot of different theories about how rifling should work. I don't think my bore is worn, it was made with the dimensions I stated. Noted on a recovered jacketed bullet that they're only .307" so each land only puts .002" pressure on the bullet. Not enough according to modern theory, but we are going back in that direction with the 5R rifling. Biggest difference between then and now is that we use bullets that are usually about groove diameter. I'll just have to try a few .311 jacketed bullets too!

[Char-Gar]

It is my plan to use 311291 and I have at least a dozen molds in that design. One of them will fit whatever the bore and groove turns out to be. This is a very blunt RN design and should not give problems in the magazine. I had a 14 in 25 Remington years ago and shot cast in it. It works fine. I plan on using the throating reamer to cut just enough throat for the bullets to be seated properly with the case mouth even with the crimp groove. I will probably put a light crimp on the bullet. I don't want it being pushed into the case in the magazine.

[madsenshooter]

I see. That magazine spring puts quite a bit of tension on the stack, a crimp in the right place would probably be a good idea. I just stumbled on an interesting scope mount/receiver sight combination that will fit my Model 14. Made at one time by a company in Oregon, Mykrom. A plate goes on the side of the receiver and the scope or receiver sight can be switched as desired, good return to zero thanks to a patented double v mounting. (http://www.google.com/patents/US2470...page&q&f=false) They were made in the late 40's, early 50's. A little 2.5 scope like a Norman Ford Texan, which I just happen to have a few of, ought to work. I think I have one with a tapered post reticle. Almost hate to drill and tap something that's made it 100yrs without suffering that fate, but I like such gadgetry!

[Char-Gar]

Very interesting sighting arrangment. If you get it up and going, be certain to post some pics for us to see. I have the old folding Lyman tang sights for my Remington 25 (25-20) and my 141 (30 Remington). They of course mount in factory provided holes.

[madsenshooter]

May not get it on for awhile, but I'll put some pics of it premounted so you get a better idea what I'm talking about. I'll do that sometime when I ain't so sleepy. Like I said, I like options, got a Krag with an odd scope mount that can be quickly removed with different scope options pre-rigged. Or when the scope's off, a bolt with a peep can be put in. The original rear sight or a Pacific receiver sight could go on too. I just hope my grandson appreciates all these neat features.

[HARRYMPOPE]

A 30 Carbine reamer has a good throat and doesn't open the neck up too much.Ed Harris Trick.

[rking22]

I read that the 14 /141 don't like lead too. Problem was I had already tried it with 311041 and it shot well. Only thing I hunted with this year and got a young and tasty buck with the 311041 and another with a 165RD. Note on the RD ,it has to be seated deep to chamber ,like yours ,throat is more accurately defined as a bevel in this gun! The 311041 was fine and seated to the crmp groove OAL was good and feeding was great. I would personally never drill/tap one of these old rifles ,there are lots of them out there that have already been done. Keep it as original as possible ,future generations may enjoy experiencing hunting "the old way". I am 54 and the eyes protest open irons ,but I still enjoy the handling qualities and pointability of these rifles as they were originally issued. It' yours ,but think on it before you start, especially if it is in good overall condition. They do shoot cast just fine!

[madsenshooter]

I might change my mind. The mount lines up right with the scope rings in it, rings are right down center, and they only raise the line of sight up 7/16". But, it appears the peep sight was made with a flat top in mind. I can get it on there, but I have to raise the mount and therefore wouldn't have the scope as low as possible like I'd want. Mount may have been for a 94 or something like that. Guess I'd better see if I can get it shooting good enough to warrant a scope before going further in that direction. Well, I'll see....

[TXGunNut]

Pics?

[rking22]

Mine is a 1939 141 ,I have been having so much fun just shooting it that I haven't done much in the way of load development. So.ooo I am interested in your results : ) ,Thanks for the bore info ,explains why the 140 seaco did not shoot well. I have a link for new 30 Rem brass and will post when I can find it. The fact is that cast shoots well and cycles fine as long as the COAL is correct and you stay out of that bevel they call a throat. A long load causes a very interesting to clear tie up! What I can say ,based on hunting with it , is that the cast loads get kinda chewed up cycling thru the mag and action when you unload the gun several times over several days of hunting. On hindsight I will cycle thru my ammo and only use the same shells for 1 or 2 hunts using them to practice and play later. My load was 1.6 cc of RL7 with 170 gr cast. Like I said ,little load development ,first try shot well (1" at 40 yards "tree rest" and to the sights 1750ish fps) Time to go "shoot some food"! Held 3ish inches at 100 for five and to the sights again. No bench rest involved, and issue opens. Time to see what it will do this summer!

[texassako]

... A little 2.5 scope like a Norman Ford Texan, which I just happen to have a few of, ought to work. I think I have one with a tapered post reticle. Almost hate to drill and tap something that's made it 100yrs without suffering that fate, but I like such gadgetry!

You ought to look into a vintage Stith no drill mount. Not sure of it is actually no drill on a 14, but they sure match up with Texan scopes nicely.

[madsenshooter]

I probably have a Stith, but it requires d&t-ing the side also and doesn't have the nifty peep sight of the Mykrom either. I did sell a Stith mount for a Model 70 once that had a peep you could put on.

[nekshot]

For those who never handled and shot these, you are missing something. I am still kicking my butt for trading off my 14 and a half 38-40, what was I thinking......!

[starmac]

I have yet to shoot my 14 (30 rem) I do finally have some dies on the way now, thanks to a fellow member here.

[madsenshooter]

Dies and a mold in my case. So the boolits I want to try haven't even been cast yet. I've got some .311 copper plated 110gr roundnose bullets I'm going to load so I can see how it likes having its groove diameter filled. See how they go at M1 carbine speed or a bit slower. Incidentally, the company that makes the copper plated bullet I have also makes a 150gr .308 flatnose for lever/pumps, but demand has them swamped right now. Graf's carries them but none in stock presently. Having those .311 bullets allowed me to see just where the rifling hits .303 and it looks like the NOE 314440 will have to be seated down to the crimp groove. Fine with me. That's gonna leave the oal a bit shorter than factory 170gr loads, but maybe they'll feed.

[rking22]

With the RD 165 I was shorter than standard OAL due to the front band dia vs the throat. The rounds fed fine thru the magazine. I was sizing .310 dia. Lots of my loads get shot plinking , these old remington pumps are a ball to shoot.
All loads produced on lee "whack-a-mole" set for 30-30. Loaded 20 rounds of brass 4 times and no sign of needing to FL size .Quit counting after that.At some point I will have to find a FL die. Reed's was the place with brass ,out of stock now. Graf's may have some in stock.

[starmac]

My lee whack-a-mole set for 30/30 is for 30/30 and 30 rem, if we are talking about just the plain old lee loader. I haven't used it, but the directions says it is for both calibers.

My m14 came from an older gent who was selling off his dads guns, and claimed his dad used it to make meat for years. They were originally from Pa. With it came 3 old boxes of winchester silvertip, all missing from one to three shells. This was 170 grain, so I assume those shot at least good enough to hunt with, but I haven't wanted to shoot up the old ammo, and got enough brass from another member to not need to.