'03 vs. '03A3

[Jim]

In a nutshell, what's the primary difference between an '03 and an '03A3?

[27judge]

When i got mine from dcm in 1961 it was calledf a sniper rifle had the redfield bridge and the bolt was altered. It had never been fired.
At that time we were told by dcm they were called 03a3 tks for your time ken

[OBIII]

Main difference is the A3 has a rear "peep" sight, now located at the rear of the receiver, while the 03 has the "ladder" type sight located at the front of the bolt. Some variations in stock style may also be used, "c" type vs "straight".

[Pavogrande]

03 vs 03a3
Rear sight location and peep vs ladder.
Stamped parts -- bands, magazine, follower, floorplate etc.
magazine/floorplate one piece rather than multi-piece
2-groove barrels on many.
rough wartime finish --
no finger relief in stock forearm.
I actually prefer the 03a3 but it is generally not as "pretty"
my ha-penny

[bob208]

03's were made by springfield and rockisland.
a3's were made by remington and smith carona.
to add to the confusion there was a 03a1 made by springfield and remington. they were 03 sights with a pistol grip stock. made by springfield in the 30's by remington in 41-42.

[Haggway]

the basic answers are already stated. Broph'ys book is a good reference to go to if you need answers.

[Multigunner]

Differences in metalurgy are probably the most important followed by the different rifling types.
Early 1903 rifles have suspect heat treatment and overall less desirable steel, but later 1903 rifles don't have this problem.
The 1903 rifles built from Nickel steel are very desirable, as are those with the superior double heat treated receivers. These generally (but not always) have excellent precision barrels with four groove rifling.
Most 1903a3 rifles have less well made two groove barrels, generally adequate in the accuracy department but not all were up to snuff.
The rare High Standard manufactured six groove barrels (possibly from Savage commercial barrel blanks) used by Smith Corona are something to keep an eye out for.

Whether the receiver mounted peep sight or open rear sight is more desirable is a matter of personal preference.

Personally I never particularly cared for either, but these days I'm becoming more interested in the breed, with a mid twenties 1903 the rifle with type "C" stock (sometimes called the 03a1) the one rifle of the type I might consider investing in.

PS
According to an old reference book here 1903 receivers and bolts built from 1942 onwards, which I expect means 1903a3 as well, were built from the same steel as that used for the Garand receivers.
This steel is described as.
WD No.8620 modified steel
Carbon .18-.25%
Manganese .70-1.00%
Nickel .20-.40%
Chromium .20-.40%
Molybdenum .15-.25%
Sulphur resulphurized to .07% maximum
Phosphorous not over .04%
Grain size 5-8 ASTM

Heat treat as follows is for Garand, not sure if exactly the same for the 03 and 03a3.
Bolt treatment normalize if needed. Carburize .015"- .020" at 1600 degrees F. Oil quench. Temper one hour at 325 degrees F. Rockwell C55 to C59 on locking lugs and rear of bolt.
Receiver heat treatment. Carburize .015"-.018" at 1600 degrees F. Oil quench. Temper one hour at 480 degrees F. Rockwell D59 to D67.

The Nickel Steel 1903 actions used much the same alloy as was earlier used for the M1917 rifle.
The figures for the M1917 follow.
Acid Process
Carbon .30-.40%
Manganese .50-.70%
Nickel 3.00 to 3.75%
Phosphurous under .05%
Sulphur under .05%

Basic process
Carbon .35-.45%
Manganese .50-.70%
Nickel 3.00 to 3.75%
Silicon .10-.20%
Phosphurous under .05%

[gnoahhh]

Hold both guns in your hand and the difference in quality will be readily apparent. I don't care for the A3's for that reason. I love 03's but will admit that their sights are usable only by 20 year olds with perfect vision. Still, by employing tricks for middle aged eyes, such as an aperture in/on your shooting glasses to focus the light, they can do credible work.

A3's were a stop-gap measure employed 70 years ago to get as many rifles as possible in as short a time as possible. They functioned well in fulfilling the need for Axis and Japanese killing tools. As far as not being the work of art that the earlier 03's were, that is one way they come up short. As far as accuracy goes, after collecting and shooting them for over 40 years, I gotta say in general the 03 is a bit more accurate than the A3 in general, all things being equal. Naturally, there are exceptions to that rule, probably a lot of them. But notice I said 'in general'. Wartime A3 barrels can be a crapshoot as far as quality goes. A pristine A3 barrel free of tooling marks and dimensionally true can be a wonderful cast bullet shooter. The problem lies in finding one.

As far as a basis for a fine sporter, an A3 will require a lot more work. (Which in all honesty weighs heavily in my preference for the 03 too.)

[W.R.Buchanan]

I am currently building a A3 Sporter. The big diffs are definately the sights, and the finish.

My barrel looks like 30 miles of bad road! An it will be difficult to fix, however I can fix it and other wise it is essentially new. Mine is a two groove Remington. Made in 1944. barrel 9/43.

The above assessment of the steel used in A3's is correct according to my research. And believe me 8620 (which is a Cro-Moly variant used for many automotive hard parts) is very definately an improvement over the "nickle steels" used in the early 1900's.

I wanted an A3 specifically because I intended to install a Lyman peep sight and didn't want to have to remove the sight assembly from the barrel which would have been more work to clean up than the 30 miles of bad road I'm looking at now. I also like the square top rear receiver ring on the A3 better. I have seen many A3 sporters where they kept the issue rear sight, and new ones are available for about $30 from several places. The Lyman just gives more adjustability, and is truer to the breed than the stock sight is.

The overall finish of the metal work is really a non issue to me as after I smooth out the woopie in the barrel It will be bead blasting the entire assembly and Black Parkerizing which will diguise most all of the minor imperfections that are left.

I had to find and buy a 03 trigger guard and floor plate which was $80 and is requiring more work than my barrel will to get to function correctly. The A3 stamped unit is attrocious on a sporting rifle, and I feel it would be an insult to our forebarrers who created this type of gun to use one when there are so many surplus 03 units laying around. Incidentially, both fit in the exact same inlet.

As far as the amount of work to convert either one of these barreled actions to a decent sporter, I see it as about the same. You could use either one in original form but how much fun would that be?

Trying to follow the footsteps of men like Wundhammer, Sedgeley, Hoffman, G&H and others is kind of what it is all about.

I consider the Springfield Sporter to be the quintisental American Bolt Action Sporting rifle. They are the guns that defined the breed.

Yes, the Winchester M70 is called the"Rifleman's Rifle, but the Springfield Sporter predated it by nearly 30 years!

Everything else is just a copy, and most are bad copies at that!

Randy

[pipehand]

Had one of those Smith-Carona 6 groove barreled a3's. It was in beautiful shape. Sold it 22 years ago for $350, what I had in it, when I had to pay an unexpected bill. Wishing I still had it.

[Multigunner]

If I were building a custom sporter on a Springfield action I'd probably start with a stripped 03a3 receiver find and fit a bolt to it, having a bolt handle to my liking mounted by a gunsmith or using one of the aftermarket pre altered bolts that were once commonly available for such conversions, then use aftermarket parts for the rest, barrel, stock, aftermarket contoured trigger guard with quick release hinged floorplate etc.

I like the looks of a sporting rifle built on the Springfield action, but would not care to modify an existing 03 or 03a3 rifle still in military trim or restorable to military trim.

If I ran across an excellent condition 03 or 03a3 barrel I'd sooner save it for restoration of a military trim Springfield that is in need of a good barrel.
A original barrel that had previously been cut down would be a different story, as would a Springfield previously sporterized and no longer in restorable condition. Pre altered military rifles should be the first choice for use in building a custom sporting rifle, those still in full trim or restorable are getting more rare everyday.

Same goes for the other classic military rifles. Only way I'd build a sporter from a M1917 would be if the rear sight ears had already been ground off.
If I had one in this condition and it still had the original barrel in unaltered condition, I'd prefer to put a new sporting barrel on it and save the original barrel for restoration of an M1917 that needed a better barrel than it had in place.

While its unlikely that I'll be able to invest in this sort of project at this late date, it is still on my bucket list.
And if building a truly custom sporter, one may as well go whole hog. The custom barrels available these days are pricey, but so are new condition milspec barrels or repros for these old war horses.

[Larry Gibson]

I still have a "new Condition" Smith Corona with 4 groove barrel. Only been arsenal inspected at Ogden. Probably the only real "collector" I ve got. Been tempted to sell it a couple times but haven't yet.

Larry Gibson

[Dutchman]

[Four Fingers of Death]

The old M1903A1 realy looks the goods! The 03A3s look a bit gawky, but are a fine rifle.

I have a 1942 (I think from memory) Remington 1903 and a pair of Remington M17s, one with a Parker sight, all in very original condition. I also have am Eddystone (these are actually Remingtons as well) P14 with a fat boy stock and front and reay volley sights, along with a few M17 target rifles and an M17 Sporter.

They are all really nice rifles, but I am especially fond of the 1903. My father was excited when I showed him the P14. He immediately recognised it and said 'Fatty had one of those!' Fatty was the sharpshooter in his squad during WW2 and Dad's best mate. When Dad wasn't scouting, he was Fatty's (Ken Lane, rip) Number 2. Fatty's rifle would have been a Winchester P14 with the British telescopic sight. Dad described the rifle that eventually replaced it and that was a Garand sniper rifle with a scope, another awesome rifle.

I actually found one which had been sporterised, the scope bases were intact. I handed it over to my mate who fully restored it and sourced a scope sight for it. The rifle and scope ended up costing him over $5000, but they are a special rifle, only 2001 of them made from memory.

[Larry Gibson]

Top is my "shooter" M1903A1.

Middle is the SC '03A3.

Botton is a M1903A3 Type I National Match I built using a DHT M1903 action instead.

Larry Gibson

[Four Fingers of Death]

The 03A3 is the ugly younger brother amongst that lot, but they are all fine rifles.

Whats a DHT M1903 action?

[gnoahhh]

DHT= Double Heat Treat (the process they switched to after the flap over early receiver failures)

[Four Fingers of Death]

DHT= Double Heat Treat (the process they switched to after the flap over early receiver failures)

Of course, thanks.

[Char-Gar]

I am currently building a A3 Sporter. The big diffs are definately the sights, and the finish.

My barrel looks like 30 miles of bad road! An it will be difficult to fix, however I can fix it and other wise it is essentially new. Mine is a two groove Remington. Made in 1944. barrel 9/43.

The above assessment of the steel used in A3's is correct according to my research. And believe me 8620 (which is a Cro-Moly variant used for many automotive hard parts) is very definately an improvement over the "nickle steels" used in the early 1900's.

I wanted an A3 specifically because I intended to install a Lyman peep sight and didn't want to have to remove the sight assembly from the barrel which would have been more work to clean up than the 30 miles of bad road I'm looking at now. I also like the square top rear receiver ring on the A3 better. I have seen many A3 sporters where they kept the issue rear sight, and new ones are available for about $30 from several places. The Lyman just gives more adjustability, and is truer to the breed than the stock sight is.

The overall finish of the metal work is really a non issue to me as after I smooth out the woopie in the barrel It will be bead blasting the entire assembly and Black Parkerizing which will diguise most all of the minor imperfections that are left.

I had to find and buy a 03 trigger guard and floor plate which was $80 and is requiring more work than my barrel will to get to function correctly. The A3 stamped unit is attrocious on a sporting rifle, and I feel it would be an insult to our forebarrers who created this type of gun to use one when there are so many surplus 03 units laying around. Incidentially, both fit in the exact same inlet.

As far as the amount of work to convert either one of these barreled actions to a decent sporter, I see it as about the same. You could use either one in original form but how much fun would that be?

Trying to follow the footsteps of men like Wundhammer, Sedgeley, Hoffman, G&H and others is kind of what it is all about.

I consider the Springfield Sporter to be the quintisental American Bolt Action Sporting rifle. They are the guns that defined the breed.

Yes, the Winchester M70 is called the"Rifleman's Rifle, but the Springfield Sporter predated it by nearly 30 years!

Everything else is just a copy, and most are bad copies at that!

Randy

Randy..Before you finish the metal ,put your Lyman sight on an go shooting. The rifle will shoot just fine with factory/military jacketed ammo with the slide of the Lyman sitting on top of the rear bridge hump. I am talking point of impact.

However with cast bullet you will probably like to have the slide lower to give some flexibility of bullet weight and velocities. I had to grind/file down the rear sight dovetail/hump on my recent 03A3 Sporter build for use with a Lyman 48 and cast bullet loads.

You may be happy with leaving the entire dovetail/hump there, but find out what you want, before you pay the price to have the metal finished.

This is not an issue with an 03 receiver.

If you want to spend the time, you can hand polish the tool/machine marks out of an 03A3 receiver and make it as smooth and slick inside and out as any 03. The "whoopie" in the barrel is a place that was turned to receive a steady rest to speed up the turning of the barrel contours without warping the barrel. You do not want to remove it totaly as to do so might cause some real issues with barrel vibrations making the barrel much to small in the middle. It will be like a Coke bottle. The steady rest "whoopie" doesn't seem to hurt accuracy any but I would be hinky about trying to polish it away.

These steady rest places occur only on the late production Remington 2 groove barrels. The Remington 4 groove and all Smith Corona barrels didn't have it.

[Char-Gar]

Randy.. Here are a couple of pics of my Springfield (03A3) sporter. It is done in the style of an NRA Sporter. The receiver is a S-C and the barrel is a new S-C.