BD--I am using CCI LP primers now that the cups measure .111 and total height is .119. I am loading Federal .45 acp cases on my CH auto champ and primers seat level with the top of the case. My Federal LP primer cups are the same at .111 and overall height is .121. I have loaded and shot 3-4k of this lot of CCI with no problems.
I'll pull a few of these apart tomorrow and have a close look at whats going on. If I seat 100 rounds using these in my old Pro-Jector with "normal" pressure, 75 of them will wobble on the table when stood on end. I can 100 seat of the other lot of CCI's, 100 Federals and 100 WLPS on the same day using the same press and none of them will wobble. We'll see. I'm glad I only have 7,000 of them and not 70,000.
BD
My Midway Primer Pocket Uniformer literature says the primer pockets should be:Originally Posted by BD
Small Rifle .118"-.122"
Large Rifle .128"-.132"
Small Pistol .118"-.122"
Large Pistol .118"-.122"
If the primer spec is .112" +.004", then a max .116" cup is .002" below the minimum pocket depth.
If your CCI cups are .1115" high and the primed case wobbles = primer is above the head, then maybe it's the case. How deep is the primer pocket on a case that wobbles with a .1115" primer cup?
My understanding is that the anvil is supposed to be "proud" a bit, and compress as the primer is seated.
joe brennan
It's a constant source of bemusement to me, how different folks' experiences vary so radically in almost every field of endeavor.
I have NEVER had a problem using CCI primers of any description, and I've used everything they make except for the benchrest series. This includes many thousands of rounds loaded on my Dillon 550B, in both rifle and handgun calibers.
The only notable difficulty I've had with primers since moving to the USA was with a batch of about 8000 undersize Winchester Large Rifle primers bought at the Big Reno Show. They could be finger-seated in many cases, even in some new-unfired brass.
I said "since moving to the USA", because the Canadian-made primers from IVI (formerly CIL) were a true PITA in several respects. I believed then that the outfit was purposely making handloading as difficult as possible in hopes we would quit and just buy factory loads.
Regards from BruceB in Nevada
"The .30'06 is never a mistake." - Colonel Townsend Whelen
I have to day, I've been loading about 4 years, (I think),and I have always used CCI primers with excellent results. Just bought another 1000 small pistol CCI-500, dadgum small pistol primers are becoming VERY hard to come by down here!
I've fired just over 100,000 CCI primers. Virtually all were in APS strips. I don't remember having a single problem. I've got another 260,000+ in the garage. I clearly like them.
260,000? Wow. I just got 1000, thought I had a lot!
OK, Yesterday I set up the blade micrometer in a stand and spent two hours peering through a magnifying lamp measuring primers. I measured 10 each from four lots. I took three readings of each measurement for Assembly height, cup height and diameter. I recorded the largest of measurement of each dimension for each primer. Did I mention that this was very tedious? I then loaded 400 rounds, 100 of each lot. I also measured 100 primer pockets. Measuring primer pockets is also a bit tedious as it's the measurement from across the face of the head to the depth at the circumfirence of the pocket which matters as the circumferance is where the primer seats. Synopsis follows:
WLP lot # UF L523G
Average assembly hieght .1193
Average cup hieght .1096
Tallest cup in the sample .1114
Average diameter .2101
Federal 150 lot # 2AY509
Average assembly hieght .1184
Average cup hieght .1091
Tallest cup in the sample .1101
Average diameter .2109
CCI 300 lot # J0511
Average assembly hieght .1201
Average cup hieght .1118
Tallest cup in sample .1127
Average diameter .2116
CCI 300 lot # D08M
Average assembly hieght .1207
Average cup hieght .1138
Tallest cup in sample .1151
Average diameter .2110
I loaded four lots of 100 rounds each using the four different lots of primers. I made a real effort to firmly seat all of the primers using a consistent amount of force. I'm loading on a Pro-Jector which bottoms on the primer seating peg, meaning that the only limit to how deep you seat them is the amount of pressure you're willing to put on the handle. With the Federals, Winchesters and CCI lot #J0511 there were no high primers. In the lot loaded with CCI lot # D08M there were 26 high primers.
I surveyed the brass in the lot loaded with #D08M:
32 Winchester Brass
16 Federal brass
13 *I*
2 Amerc
6 Spear
4 CCI
3 National
11 RP
4 GFL
1 Zero
1 S&B
1 Star
4 WW
1 WCC 66
1 WCC 67
The Brass with high primers:
14 Winchester
3 WW
4 Federal
1 Speer
1 RP
1 GFL
1 WCC 66
1 WCC 67
The deepest primer poket I measured was .119, (*I* brass which has a slightly concave head), most were .117 to .1175 I have not reached a conclusion about why a .1151 primer cup will not seat flush in a .117 primer pocket without crushing it. It may be a combination of depth and diameter? Maybe the radius at the edge of the pocket circumferance comes into play? In any event lot # D08M causes trouble loading .45 acp in my progressive @ .1138, CCI's spec would allow primers to a cup hieght of .1160
BD
If the primer pocket minimum is .118" per my Midway literature, then all your primers appear to be within spec-at least shorter than min pp depth. The problem looks to be in your brass. If the brass pp dimension = .118"-.122", then I'd aim at .120", figuring that the ctg. would fire with the primer under the head. Am I missing something? Ain't it a brass problem?
joe brennan
AMEN!
From 1978 until 1989 I ran a commercial ammo company. We consumed over 3,000,000 (yes 3 million) CCI pistol primers. Never had a problem with them.
Never had a misfire.
To this day CCI is still my favorite primer.
Nowadays I do all of my priming with an RCBS hand primer tool.
I never have any problems seating CCI primers below flush.
BD, your *I* cases are Independence brand. Another fine product from your friends in Lewiston.
They do indeed have a concave "face" because they are stamped not drawn. Made on the same machinery as the Blazer (formerly CCI) brass cases which also have a concave face. Some of the Speer Lawman cases are now stamped as well.
I believe that this issue is due to this lot of primers being taller than any of the others. I've loaded them in a variaty of brass and the issue seems to be independant of headstamp. Given the various tolerances quoted, I'm not sure why this lot of CCI primers is so troublesome, but it is. I don't know why CCI has specs allowing their primers to vary so far from what can be loaded safely, but they do. Given a choice my plan is to avoid buying them in the future.
BD
I've noticed everyone has avoiding mentioning that the CCI primers that BD measured also show them as having a larger diameter.
Personally I feel that parimers on the larger side of being in spec help insure more reliable performance. The tighter the primer is in the pocket the better it will seal gasses in and moisure out. And just in case you don't have a primer completely seated the tension should hold the primer in place when the firing pin strikes.
A loose primer will absorb the blow in seating itself.
Except for experimentation I use CCI primers exclusively. I'm very comfortable using them. I have learned how they feel during seating and I prefer the positive feel of them versus other brands.
But then I also have no problem with the slightly tighter pockets of S&B and Magtech (CBC) brass. I"ve learned to deal with it as just another variable in the game.
I used to have a Lot of PMC Green heavy metal free primers. I also liked the positive feel they exhibited during seating.
Back when they were still available I actually considered changing over to them.
I really wish CCI would release a heavy metal free primer to the public.
(are you listening Lewiston?)
It's possible that it's the combination of the slightly larger diameter and the taller hieght which is making them tough to seat. As CCI is not interested in replacing them, I'll probably use them up in the revolvers. A little cylinder drag is easier on the mind than a 1911 doubling or tripling. It's interesting that I've had 3 "funny" lots of CCI 300s out of only 50 or 60 thousand, while other folks have used millions with no issues. Generally speaking I feel that I've been very lucky, yet every time we eat fish at home I get all the bones. My wife never seems to get any. Many these little tribulations are the price I must pay on some cosmic level for the general good fortune I've had in life
BD
BD:
"Every time we eat fish at home I get all the bones. My wife never seems to get any."
Me too! Good to have company. I can also find the one piece of core in an apple pie, or the one bit of walnut shell in a handful of nuts.
floodgate
Me too.
I always seem to find a little piece of bone in every hamburger I eat.
Maybe it's because my parents taught me to properly chew my food?
But what I really hate is finding a piece of ultra bitter shell in my pecan pie.
Man, nothing will take that taste out of your mouth.
Adding to this old thread. I was having a proud primer problem with large pistol primers in mixed 45 colt brass (R-P, Winchester, Starline, FC) using a vintage round tray Lee hand priming tool. Usually works good, tried resizing the pockets and stuff. Switching to my on press RCBS tube fed primer installation set fixed the problem. IIRC, I had a similar problem loading 44s. My $.02. Carry on.
I do not use cci primers at all. 40 years ago when I was loading for business I had a string of hard primers. needed 2-3 strikes for them to go off and we are talking rifles and service pistols not target guns. I gun showed them and have been using Winchester and Federal with out a problem ever since.
I had a batch of hard winchester lpp and spp. So I think you run the risk with any brand. I use cci small pistol primers and winchester large pistol primers. Winchester small magnum primers were the worst problem.
Due to the price of primers, warning shots will no longer be given!
In 50+ years of reloading , I have never had a FTF that was the primers fault.
It was always the gun.
Maybe I am just lucky.
High primers and bad headspace can cause misfires/FTF...dale
In 40+ years of reloading have used several hundred K CCI primers, large and small, pistol and rifle, mag and standard. Only time there were any issues was when using the primer arm, prime on upstroke system on my old Lyman Spartan press. Would check as I primed and sometimes had to seat a second time, but problem was me not applying enough pressure to seat fully. Once I went to priming on the upstroke, first with a Lee ram prime die and now with a Lee auto prime II, this hasn't been an issue.
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