311407

[ammohead]

Got my mould today. Boolits drop .313 - .314 . Overshot the diameter just a tad. Boolits must be hammered from the mould. I use a bhn 18 corn cob ingot to "tap" on the hinge when boolits are reluctant to part from the mould. To get all 4 to drop from their cavities take upward of 15 to 20 solid whacks from my ingot on the hinge.

Perhaps this is indicative of the loverin type design with the large number of lube grooves making dropping difficult. I probably will avoid this type of boolit in the future. There was a raised edge on one side of the cavities that you could easily feel when you ran your finger over them. Dull tool maybe? I carefully stoned this down. When they do drop they are formed beautifully. Don't want a refund. Won't give up my mould. Just saying.

All honest efforts deserve an honest critique.

ammohead

[SwedeNelson]

ammohead

We spec-ed this bullet at .314

Form tool checked out OK and the burr problem has been
noted and we are addressing it.
My mould too was a bear to cast with at first.
It did settle down after a little use.

"All honest efforts deserve an honest critique"
Thank you sir.

Swede Nelson

[Char-Gar]

Got my mould today. Boolits drop .313 - .314 . Overshot the diameter just a tad. Boolits must be hammered from the mould. I use a bhn 18 corn cob ingot to "tap" on the hinge when boolits are reluctant to part from the mould. To get all 4 to drop from their cavities take upward of 15 to 20 solid whacks from my ingot on the hinge.

Perhaps this is indicative of the loverin type design with the large number of lube grooves making dropping difficult. I probably will avoid this type of boolit in the future. There was a raised edge on one side of the cavities that you could easily feel when you ran your finger over them. Dull tool maybe? I carefully stoned this down. When they do drop they are formed beautifully. Don't want a refund. Won't give up my mould. Just saying.

All honest efforts deserve an honest critique.

ammohead

Ammohead..It may be a little prideful, but I can make a legitimate claim to being the father of this version of the Loverin bullet. I got the first group buy together years ago and determined the specs and this bullet holds to those specs. It has been a proven performer through a number of different runs with several mold makers. Swede's version is true to the original specs and is a jewel of machining. Mine is great. Any mold can have a few burrs on the edge of the cavities, and aluminum is more prone to this than brass or iron. Read the sticky on Leementing and follow the instructions and your bullets will fall from the mold like water.

The original Lyman/Loverin 311407 was one band longer. I had to shorten it one band, to make it fit in the Lee six cavity blocks of the original run. The original Lyman/Lovern version has the first three bands tapered from about .307 to .304 to fit in the throats, but that required seating the body of the bullet below the case mouth on some rifles and cases. I changed the front two bands ato .301 so tjeu wpi;d engrave and ride the lands of most true 30 caliber bullets. It is a good choice for the 30-40, 30-30, and 30-06 and other cases with long necks. Not so good in the short necked rounds like the .308 and 300 Savage.

The longer body bands can be sized down to .310 easy to fit any number of barrel throats. Some folks get a little "ratched jawed" when they close down the thin bands a little during sizing. Just lube the bullets first and that will keep the bands from closing down. I run mine through a Lyman machine with a die that is .315 to lube and gas check. I then run them through a nose first size die held in my reloading press. Never a problem this way.

There is no need to lube all of the gooves, but it won't hurt. I only lube the grooves in the case neck.

Just trying to give you a little history on this bullet so you will know how come it came to be what it is. It has a few little quirks, but once you know that it is a fine performer. If you have a 2 groove barrel, this is not the bullet for you. But if you have a 4 or more groove barrel, it will do as good a job as any and better than most. With a 2 groove, you are better of with a long nose rider that has a short body.

[TCFAN]

I bought a 3 cavity mold that I received a few days ago.It is a jewel. All three boolits drop out with one tap on the handle hinge bolt. Casting with wheel weights they measure right at .314 and weigh 172.7 from all 3 cavitys. I could not be more pleased.

Haven't had a chance to shoot any yet but I am looking forward to it..............Terry

[zuke]

I planned to use thes for paper patching, and that mean's squeezing them down to the .301-302 range.
Any harm in that?

[HARRYMPOPE]

I have had two Lyman 311407's and they also were unwilling to leave the cavities with ease.My 311465-466 and 467's all release fine.If i remember the lube grooves were more squared off than the other Loverin's As a side note i never got the accuracy with it that the 31141 got.

Loverins shoot fine in many two grooves BTW.The old EH Harrison general rule was not 100% true.Throat fit is the key and many fat loverins dont fit very well up front.It depends on the leade not the rifling type IMHO anyhow.

George

[HARRYMPOPE]

Got my mould today. Boolits drop .313 - .314 . Overshot the diameter just a tad.

ammohead

seems spot on to the drawing ?

George

[ammohead]

My bad about the diameter. I noticed that other lyman numbers on group buys had been modified to reflect boolit diameter and I expected that to run true. No real harm calling a 311407 designed to drop .314 a 314407. The large number of small grooves helps it to size down to .309 in one pass without bending. I have been having trouble with bending on some other moulds lately.

Got about 300 lubed and sized and they look beautiful. Some range time without 50 mph winds would be good.

[HARRYMPOPE]

I have sized (pre lubed) 8mm bullets from .323 to .314 in one push through a Lee sizer with no damage and they still shot well.


you must have the wind we have had up here in Wa state lately.I can shot in rain and cold but when my stuff blows off the bench i get crabby

George

[Char-Gar]

My bad about the diameter. I noticed that other lyman numbers on group buys had been modified to reflect boolit diameter and I expected that to run true. No real harm calling a 311407 designed to drop .314 a 314407. The large number of small grooves helps it to size down to .309 in one pass without bending. I have been having trouble with bending on some other moulds lately.

Got about 300 lubed and sized and they look beautiful. Some range time without 50 mph winds would be good.

The original name for this bullet was "311407 Mod." to stand for "modified". It was a modified version of 311407 as stated above. In later runs, the "mod" was dropped. That has always be a slight concern of mine, thinking that folks might think this was the original Lyman/Loverin design and be disappointed that it was not.

As the story was passed down to me, folks wanted a flat nose version of 311467 to use in tubular magazine leverguns, so Guy Loverin put a meplat on the bullet and 311407 was born. It lost a few grains of weight with the flat top haircut.

The Lyman versions of the 30 caliber Loverin bullets (311466, 311467 and 311407) all carried the "311" prefix. That was the most commonly used sizing diameter of the day and not the "as cast" diameter". I have three of these molds and they all cast .313 or greater. But all of the Lyman designs that had a long production life has specs all over the place. It seem that Lyman "outsourced" their cherries and whoever ground them, took great liberties with the specs.

So when dealing with orginal Lyman numbers, the first three numbers should be taken with a grain of salt if you consider that to be the as cast diameter.

I have not had good results with Loverin style bullets in 2 groove barrels. If others have, then that is good.

I started shooting 311467 back in the 60's and had some decent shooting with it, but nothing great. I tried it off and on over the years, but some years back I had Buckshot make me a .302 nose sizing die and began to play with 311467 again. I found that when I sized the top two bands .302 so they would bore ride, accuracy took a giant leap forward. That is why 311407 Mod. was spec-ed as it was.

Swede (NOE) produced a scaled up version of this bullet for the 8mm/32 rifles. He kept the first two bands of a proper size to bore ride. This has proven to be a great 8mm and 32 WS mold for me as well.

In recent years the number of molds I use has become much smaller in number. For 30 caliber I like 311407 Mod, 311291, 311284 and RCBS 165 Sil (.308 Win.). For the 8mm and 32 WS I like NOE 323407. If I can't get a 30 or 32 caliber rifle to shoot with one of these, then it just isn't going to shoot well. But I have never had that happen. All of my rifles (and I have quite a few) will do well with these bullets. For certain, there are other great designs, but these work for me.

[HARRYMPOPE]

off topic of the '407 but the 311466 cherry is cut many ways.The one with the bands all groove diameter as opposed the ft bands smaller before the nose dont shoot as well.(the correct cherry has the reduced dia. bands)I have had nearly a dozen of them and they are allover the board.I only have two 311467's and they are cut "correctly".I still dont see Loverins as any design advantage though i own and like some of them.They are seldom(read never) in the winners circle at registered cast bullet matches.

Just my take on it.

George

[Char-Gar]

As stated, Lyman outsourced their mold cherries and over time the specs on most of them were all over the map. I am very fond of 311291 and have eight of them of various vintages. I bought them when used molds could be had for very little. With such a variety of specs, I can most often find one that will fit just about any 30 caliber rifle.

Cast bullet matches tend to be fired with long nose bore riders. If you have one of those that is a good fit to your barrel it is a tack driver. The only issue with one of those, if the nose needs to ride on the top of the lands or engrave a mite. If unsupported, the nose will slump and accuracy will go out the window.

I like the Loverin and old Barlow designs (311291 and 311284) because of their long bodies that support the bullet. They are more forgiving about nose fit and still turn in good accuracy. I have a couple of dozen 30 caliber rifles in which I shoot cast bullets. I can get all the acccuracy I want with Loverin or old Barlow designs, without having to mess with all the tiny details of a bore rider. But if you are shooting for the gold, a bore rider that is a proper fit is the way to go.

I guess it all boils down to what your shooting goals are.

[nanuk]

my goals are a deers heart/lung/liver within 250yds, and Sausage within reach!

I'm easily satisfied...

[ammohead]

Shot the 311407 yesterday after work in a Norwegian Krag chambered in 300 Savage with a relatively fast looking twist, I would guess 1 in 10 or faster. I must measure it someday. The first five on paper weren't very impressive but shooting at pins on the 200 yard line with the other 15 told a different story. Maybe the bbl had to foul-in. The load of 17 gr of sr4759 surplus was a bit stiff so maybe backing off will produce better groups on paper. Still a satisfying day at the range.

[HARRYMPOPE]

I like the Loverin and old Barlow designs (311291 and 311284) because of their long bodies that support the bullet. They are more forgiving about nose fit and still turn in good accuracy. I have a couple of dozen 30 caliber rifles in which I shoot cast bullets. I can get all the acccuracy I want with Loverin or old Barlow designs, without having to mess with all the tiny details of a bore rider. But if you are shooting for the gold, a bore rider that is a proper fit is the way to go.

I guess it all boils down to what your shooting goals are.[/I]

I'll buy the above statement.

Never heard of a bullet style termed "Barlow" type though he designed many of the early ones.i consider the 311291 and 311284 bore riders though many had undersized noses that didn't actually ride.I agree 100% the long bodies if driven at lower velocity seem to help them shoot even though the nose is flapping in the wind.But get one with a proper sized nose(.300 or better) and they generally shoot much better.I cheat and use bump dies to do this.The 311466 is a bullet that shoots well for me across the board as well.Its light but doesn't shoot much worse than many other designs in my 2 and 4 groove Springfield and Marlin Micro 30-30's.I feel bad you only have a couple dozen 30 calibers to shoot.It's my favored caliber to.

George

[zuke]

Got mine yesterday but wont use it till Saturday.
Scrubbed it with a toothbrush,gonna use the lighter to smoke the cavities and dig out my Bullshop lube and do all the screw's.

[Char-Gar]

Barlow type is not a term in common usage. I think it came out of my head. I was refering to the early Barlow designs like 311291 and 311284. To my mind, they are not true bore riders as we understand that term today. It has to do with the ratio of body to nose. Todays bore riders are mostly nose, but the Barlow bullets had far more body. That longer body to nose ratio helped keep the bullet centered in the bore and prevented nose slump even if the nose was not in full contact with the lands. That is why they have been so sucessfull for over 100 years. They are very flexible bullets in terms of what rifles they will fit.

I would call the Barlow design bullets "semi-nose rider", but again, that is just my term. I tend to group cast bullets into three categories;

1. Body bullets like the old multi-band Schutzen designs used by Harry Pope and others of that day. Guy Loverin took the concept to another level for use in smaller bore smokless powder rounds.

2. Barlow designs, which are more or less, 50-50 body and nose.

3. Nose riders that are mostly nose with much shorter bodies.

Good work can be done with all three, but each has it's advantages, quirks and limitations. I don't think there is one magic bullet design. Different rifles will often require different bullets for their best work.

Again, these are just terms and concepts running around in my head and are not standard terms, just my thinking on the subject at hand. But when I address bullet design and fit, this is my frame of reference. These concepts are made of of bits and pieces of what I have learned over the years shooting cast bullet through rifles. I am not a science type, just an old shooter.

My experience tells me that 2 groove barrels move allot of bullet metal as the bullet hurl down it. The shorter the body, the less metal there is to move. True nose riders have less metal to move than Loverin designs. I suspect that 311466 being shorter than the longer 311467 would do better because of the reduced length and hence less metal to move around by the barrel. When it comes to 2 groove barrels I just go to the true nose riders and make life easier to myself.

[zuke]

I got mine up and running this weekend.
I had problem's with the boolit's filling out, but went to 820-830 F and that solved that problem.
Most of the time a couple rapp's on the hinge pin and they all fell out of the mold.
This is about 4 hour's of casting.

[HiVelocity]

Well, I finally got this mold up and running, and like others, it likes to run on the hot side.

I made up a dummy round to see how well it would function in both of my 30-30's and it appears good, so far. I plan to load this particular bullet to start with 16 grains of 2400 and go from there.

Did some reading last night and read where the 2400 load and this bullet weight is recommended for the 30-06 also. I may jump to my 03' sporter first and see what happens. Supposed to be a good 100 yard load.

Just food for thought, comments?

HV

[TCFAN]

I got to try out this boolit over the weekend in my 30-30 24 inch Encore.Using 18.5grs. of IMR4198 and boolits that were weighed to plus or minus one tenth grain and indexed from the mold they shot into 2 inch or less groups at 100 yards for ten shot groups. For the first time out I thought that was not to bad.......Terry