Introducing the 400 BTS Mag!

[buck1]

Take your time! My new job is taking up all my time right now anyway.

[PhilOhio]

"The toughness and thickness of these 9mm cartridge case jackets, even fully annealed, is always going to be a limiting factor, at moderate velocities. The metallurgy is totally different than dedicated copper bullet jackets. That's why I suggested soft lead cores. And for the same reason, having as much exposed lead on the hollowpoint is ideal. That was how I finally got big expansion with the handgun bullets, fired at anything."

I have been using cartridge brass for bullets for thirty years and I have not found this to be true. Of course there is a learning curve; but, I'm so far down the road I can't even remember making it . Even rifle brass (308, 30-06) makes fine jackets for the 44 Mag. Of course you'll find all this out yourself if you experiment enough.

Well Bwana, having reloaded for 52 years now, and swaged jacketed boolits for 25 of those years, I expect I am fairly far down that learning curve road you mention; maybe even further. I stand behind what I said about the metallurgy and the nature of cartridge brass used for jackets. The simple fact is that it is quite different from dedicated jacket metal, much harder and less ductile than copper jacket metal. And the laws of physics dictate that it thus perform differently. It does. That's why all the boolit manufacturers use relatively softer, and usually thinner, copper alloy jackets, rather than the harder gilding metal used for cases, which require that extra strength to hold pressure and resist the very sort of deformation that we want in expanding boolits. I did not reach my conclusions arbitrarily, or on the basis of what I read on the Internet, but after recovering a lot of bullets. And of course experimentation and learning never stops. But that's pretty much what I've "found out for myself" so far, unassisted by wiser souls with broader experience.

These boolits using jackets made from annealed cartridge cases are fine boolits, but their use in moderate handgun calibers should take into consideration their special, and in some ways unique, characteristics. An important one is how they perform at the lower velocities, below 1000 fps. That covers most, or at least half, of the common .40 S&W loadings in my reference books and software data bases.

High velocity rifle loadings are a different ball game and, as I said earlier, that's where these boolits should shine.

[Bwana]

My 40S&W rounds, made from cartridge brass and pure lead cores, run 1200fps and have no problem expanding nicely. I hope people get involved in using cartridge brass for bullets as it is very rewarding learning to put everything together so that it works as you intended. As Thomas Edison said, "Genius is 1 percent inspiration, 99 percent perspiration." And if you have to perspire why not while doing something you enjoy.

[PhilOhio]

Bwana, I couldn't agree with you more. I think these bullets are especially useful because Glock, and other manufacturers, have switched to the polygonal rifling, and there's a lot of differing opinion as to why/whether there is a safety issue with cast lead boolits. I'm not totally decided, but careful experimentation has so far revealed no problems to me. Just to be safe, I have been sticking to the low target loadings, though, since I have not yet learned everything there is to know.

I can't see any logical reason why there should be a lead boolit problem, and some of my very experienced fellow reloaders insist, categorically, that there isbe none. I'm on the fence.

But I know for sure that boolits made with cartridge brass jackets will hold the rifling like commercial jackets, and cause no safety problems whether they expand the same as, less than, or more than copper jackets.

My personal opinion is that, most likely, the isolated cases where cast lead boolits have been involved in burst case or barrel Glock incidents were related more to the reloader pushing safe powder load limits than to any mysterious ways in which moderately firm boolit lead does something or other differently in deep polygonal rifling. It has also been alleged that Glock barrel throating, in the ramp area, is unusually severe and leaves a non-web case area unsupported. I don't know about early Glocks, but on the current Generation 4, this is simply untrue.

Anyhow, I eliminate all such questions by sanely loading the stiffer powder charges behind BT jacketed boolits in defensive loads for my Glock 27 in .40 S&W, and I use lead in the lower pressure target loads and with my Lone Wolf 9mm barrel in the same gun.

Incidentally, this lead boolit question is not a new issue. I first ran into it in the mid-'80s, with my first H&K P7M13, which has true polygonal rifling (not the current type Glock uses) and also a gas port just ahead of the chamber...which can indeed foul the unique gas locking piston if not cleaned rather frequently.

[Plinkster]

BT your awesome wildcat has me dreaming of my own some day! I love the large caliber rifle cartridges with their great bullet weight flexibility. That country the mule deer was taken in looks quite familiar to me. What unit was it taken in? I hunt the Heppner unit myself with a large family contingent. Lots of the east country looks very similar but it sure is beautiful! Gotta mention that having a swage guru like yourself from my home state makes me pretty proud to claim I'm from Orygun! Keep up the spectacular innovation!

[BT Sniper]

Thanks,

I've been hunting the Starky unit most my life. My family (dad and grandpa) grew up hunting heppner unit. Lots of fun stories about big mule deer.

There seems to be a lot of NorthWest intrest in bullets, shooting, swaging and everything related as far as manufactures go. Must be the weather.

It is fun to have something different wether it be a wildcat cartridge or shooting these bullets made from brass.

I hope to have some results from the tamer 40-308 soon.

Good shooting and Swage On!

BT

[toolz568]

The info on the 40-308 should be interesting. The late Col. Townsend Whelen actually developed a .400-06 - necked up to accept a .405 Winchester bullet - Better known as the .400 Whelen. Griffin & Howe chambered rifles for this cartridge, but headspace difficulties were reported with the small shoulder.

Comment edited: The late Col. Townsend Whelen changed the shoulder from the standard .441 to .458. Some companies were producing dies that kept the original 30-06 shoulder at .441, creating headspace problems.
(Smashing the headspace Myth by MICHAEL PETROV)

Good luck and I look forward to hearing the results.

[MIBULLETS]

I have heard that they partially solved this by making it an improved version by increasing the shoulder angle and reducing the case body taper.

[bohica2xo]

Ah, the old "it will never headspace!" argument. Complete garbage.

You can headspace a rimless pistol cartridge on the mouth of the case. About a .010 step, with allowances for fit even less than that.

The 308 has a larger shoulder diameter than the 30-06, and Brian is using a bullet that is .011 smaller in diameter. Not that it matters much.

"Serious headspace problems" Not likely. The only way to apply enough force to move the shoulder back would mean using a LOT of force on the bolt. Remember what it takes in a loading press to push a shoulder back.

If someone single loads a round into a mauser type action and tries to force an unmodofied claw extractor to jump over the rim of the case, you might generate a small setback in the shoulder. Hardly "serious".

B.

[BT Sniper]

I'm pretty sure others have shot the 40-308 successfully allready. I certainly look forward to sending a few bullets down range soon and don't expect I'll have any issues. I think it is going to be a great cartridge!

BT

[toolz568]

bohica2xo,

I was considering the 40-06 and appreciate the feedback and the pushback. You are correct, the shoulder of the 308 is wider than the 30-06 and the original design of the 400 whelen was .458. The problem seems to be that some dies were setting the shoulder to the original design of the 30-06 of .441, not .458, as Townsend Whelen did. The problem seems to be with the dies, not the cartridge. Having the smaller wrong shoulder would cause head spacing problems (Smashing the headspace Myth by MICHAEL PETROV).

I am looking at an article on the .411 Hawk, which has less of a shoulder and no issues.

Again, thanks for the info and I will edit my past comment.

[bohica2xo]

OGOTZ:

Thanks for the update. Nice job on the research.

Sorry if that seemed abrupt, but the internet has spread misinformation far & wide. I have seen it hurt legitimate companies when someone starts re-posting things across forums. Right now a friend is fighting a single post on facebook about his company that has spread all over. Completely in error - it was not even his product that failed. Cost him a lot of money.

Whelen was a bright guy, and G&H never made any junk. The problem as your diligent research has shown is that a bad set of dies caused the loading of ammo that was essentially the wrong caliber. That of course is a bad thing.

B.

.

[toolz568]

The BT 40-06 Ackley Improved is looking like it may happen. Basically taking the .400 Whelen design and using BTsnipers .40 bullets instead of Whelens .411 bullets. I have blown the neck out of a 30-06 and it looks great, but I want to try it out on a 30-06 Ackley improved before I go anywhere with this. Anyone have an idea where I can get a 30-06 Ackley Improved case?

[Plinkster]

Yep, take a 30-06 case neck up and seat the bullet to the lands and fire in an Ackley improved chamber. Instant shoulder, works great in my rifle anyway.

[BT Sniper]

Did some shooting with the 400 BTS MAG again this weekend. 75 grains of H-335 and a muzzel break really clears the sinuses. Got a video to upload and should have it posted soon.

BT

[toolz568]

Plinkster,
Sounds easy enough, but I'm having a hard time finding someone to make the reamer. I figure take a .400 Whelen reamer and grind it down to fit the BT 40 or sleeve a 30-06 ackley up to fit the BT 40. I created one shell and it looks great.

[BT Sniper]

Took some video of my dad shooting the 400 BTS MAG this weekend. Got some still frames off the video.


Just before ignition




At the moment of igintion.




Full burn!



BT

[BT Sniper]

Dad and a little light target practice with the 400 BTS










BT

p.s. kidding

[BT Sniper]

Here is another short video clip of my dad shooting the MAG. Sorry for the profanity but the muzzel blast was EPIC!


click on pic for video!



BT

[a.squibload]

Oh great, now I want one too!

(Not profanity, just exclamation.)