"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[Marlin Junky]

oh yeah the group size..
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40 shots real size, i held the target up to the screen and filled it in.

Lamar,

Can you please explain your results in terms of inches and yards... or better yet scan and post your results? My display is over 1900 pixels wide, so in my world you're shooting 3/4" groups.

BTW, I can't find your load info... are you at 40K PSI yet?

Yeah babie, dump that castor oil!

MJ

[geargnasher]

The castor is dumped for my next test. After making a batch just like Brad's SL-61.2 I got really curious, so I produced a batch I'm calling the "Beta" version using only exactly equal parts fresh Ivory, hard yellow beeswax, and Assemblee Goo. It turned out very firm, very dry, and it leaves very little residue on the fingers, and though very firm it's barely soft enough to finger lube. It's pretty much non-stick and doesn't work-soften much.

I was impressed by how much slick feeling only a teaspoon of castor per 3/4 pound of lube leaves behind, it really doesn't take much to make a huge difference. Brad's modified version subbing two-stroke oil for half the castor is still noticeably "filmy", though not nearly as much as SL-61.0

20 rounds are loaded for tomorrow evening after work, I hope it isn't too hot out, but it starts to chill down before sundown.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Forgot to add that I had a couple lube boogers on a target. Target was at 100 yards. Didn't expect to see that.

Booger was 1/4 inch from the hole.

Uh-oh, I'm glad you mentioned that because it's not good. On a .30-caliber a half-groove-sized booger can throw the boolit out as much as 3/4". Looks like we may have too much sticky here in 30-degree weather.

Microwaxes have a distinct and drastic melt point, one of the reasons a blend of melt temps might be better when trying it.

There is a huge difference, when making soap lube, between beeswax and microwaxes, paraffins, or micro-paraffin blends. I've messed with all of that stuff and noted trends. Generally, it takes more oil content or plasticizing agent to generate the same final viscosity when using beeswax than it does when using a pure microwax, and even less oil/plasticizer for straight gulf wax. The beeswax soaks up a bunch.

You guys are on to something with the waxes, once we get this current middle modifier and lube oils proven out I'd like to start working with a flexible, commercial, high MP microwax blend like we'd talked about before from Blended Waxes. There was one in particular Lamar liked, and I did too.

If the "Beta" version works ok, I might make a duplicate with a titch more Assemblee Goo and 1.5% hBN.

In another week of testing we should be pretty close to something we can settle down and just shoot for a while.

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

You guys are on to something with the waxes, once we get this current middle modifier and lube oils proven out I'd like to start working with a flexible, commercial, high MP microwax blend like we'd talked about before from Blended Waxes. There was one in particular Lamar liked, and I did too.

Gear

Ian,

We were discussing BW-408 and BW-430 quite some time ago and didn't you say you were going to call BW to see if you could talk to someone with a technical background... perhaps a chemical engineer?

MJ

[geargnasher]

You're right Don, I was, but I put it off for some reason. I posted why but can't remember now. Anyway, I wanted to start out with beeswax because I thought it would work and everyone seems to have it on hand. Mainly I was testing the "middle modifier" thing (transmission assembly gel), as soon as that gets evaluated I'm planning to go back and mess with waxes again. We were looking at something different than 430 or 408, though. 430 is a good component, but by itself changes phase too fast for hot-weather lube (MML, for example). 408 might be ok if it has a longer "mush phase".


Beeswax may prove to be cold-barrel sensitive without some other wax present, and at least one person suspects it can be slightly corrosive. My main issues with it are that it can't get locked in the grease matrix because it can't tolerate the extreme heat of melting the soap, and it dries out over time, almost like sublimation. It is, however, an outstanding lubricant in its own right, and may have a place in the lube as such but in small percentages where it's not the carrier anymore.

Gear

[runfiverun]

don the group was 1" high and a titch over 1-1/4" wide. [at 100 yds]
the wide was from me rolling the rifle a bit from shot to shot.
i had 5 shots strung together that just walked over that way.
i didn't catch that i was doing it untill i walked down to the target and could see the frowny face. [that is the line off by itself on the right]
and the x at the bottom is a small group of 3 all clumped together into a very,very tight group.
this was through the 22-250 and was in the 2600+ fps area, i'll kick it back up to 2700+ next go round.
i wanted to see if there was a relaxation point in the barell [lube smear] so i dropped the load to the point where it was just burning about clean.

[Marlin Junky]

You're right Don, I was, but I put it off for some reason. I posted why but can't remember now. Anyway, I wanted to start out with beeswax because I thought it would work and everyone seems to have it on hand. Mainly I was testing the "middle modifier" thing (transmission assembly gel), as soon as that gets evaluated I'm planning to go back and mess with waxes again. We were looking at something different than 430 or 408, though. 430 is a good component, but by itself changes phase too fast for hot-weather lube (MML, for example). 408 might be ok if it has a longer "mush phase".


Beeswax may prove to be cold-barrel sensitive without some other wax present, and at least one person suspects it can be slightly corrosive. My main issues with it are that it can't get locked in the grease matrix because it can't tolerate the extreme heat of melting the soap, and it dries out over time, almost like sublimation. It is, however, an outstanding lubricant in its own right, and may have a place in the lube as such but in small percentages where it's not the carrier anymore.

Gear

Well, keep on truckin' with the research on microcrystalline waxes but when they are combined with beeswax and paraffin, the abrupt phase change is altered. For hot weather, a soaped up MML with the grease of your choice should be the bee's knees.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

...this was through the 22-250 and was in the 2600+ fps area, i'll kick it back up to 2700+ next go round.

Lamar,

Do you have the powder, boolit, alloy hardness and barrel length handy?

Thanks,
MJ

[btroj]

I too think microwax and beeswax together may work. The beeswax can help moderate that rapid phase change the microwax has.
Like the castor/2 stoke oil thing, rather than change the whole thing use the beneficial properties of each by combining them. This also help moderate the annoying tendencies of each.

[runfiverun]

23.5 grs of imr 4895. [is the normal load]
i dropped it to 22 grs.
the boolit is the rcbs 055-sp bumped up in my swage die so the nose is .219 and just rubs the rifling.
the alloy is commercial 2/6/92 with 2% more tin added,poured at 715-f,with a 5 count after the sprue changes color.
the barell is 24" on a real early push feed winchester made in 1967.
i'll probably sloww the powder down some for better case fill, i'm at about 75% right now.

i noticed today that the main difference between this soap lube and my complex moly is the stickyness i have with the moly, and the glide with the 61.1 i made.
that is one of the things i'm gonna look at.
castor out [thinking lucas in] ounce of b-wax out, ounce of micro in.

we'll get it.

fixed it.
thanks,EDD

[geargnasher]

I slipped out of work early, off to load some .45 Colts in addition to the .30-30 loaded last night with the Beta version, back in a bit with more from my range.....

Gear

[badgeredd]

Lamar,

I think you have a typo in the last post...I assume you meant .219 on the nose diameter. I had to go back to make sure you said you're using a 22-250.

[geargnasher]

I think pulling all the extra oils fixed it, for now, but I have this nagging feeling that we aren't done trying to add back something to fill the gap. This stuff shoots unbelievably dry, I could see the color of the bore inside the muzzle, the rust pits, the scratches, some of the original bluing here and there, tiny bit of alloy in the crevasses of the leading land edges typical with this rifle, high velocity (for a .30-30), and soft alloy).

Before shooting, I pushed a dry patch through the bore and it came out with only a faint grey smudge on it, but it felt a tiny bit oily, and the cleaning rod went smoothly through the barrel like there was wheel bearing grease on the patch. In retrospect I should have wiped it out with Ed's Red to kill the residue from the SL-61, because it threw the first shot almost two inches low. The next nine went into 1-1/4" at a hundred from my improvised rest where I shoot from to get to a fuzz under a hundred yards.

After taking a break to tend some animals (20 minutes) I shot another eight into just under an inch, and pulled two out of the park due to being twitchy and the recoil giving me the "weak trembles" and finger jerks. I need to build a bench in that spot, but it's right next to my neighbor's house and I only shoot (with their permission) when they're not home. Fortunately it's spring break and they're teachers.

I patched through after shooting, just to see, and just about nothing came out on the dry patch. 20 rounds and the bore looks like it had been washed our with brake cleaner and dried. The patch went right through it, no tight spots or anything.

It was too late to shoot much .45 Colt with the Beta, so I'll save that for another day.

Gear

[btroj]

Is there a good oil that is between castor and 2 stroke in behavior?

Maybe a small amount of ATF? Like 5 ml in the batch size I made?

Would this also be a place to consider a small amount of cetyl esters? They may give good low temp properties and "liquefy" easily under pressure. By small amount I mean 1/4 ounce in the 1 ounce soap recipe.

I think the key is making small changes, replacing part of an ingredient rather than the entire ingredient.

Looks like we will soon be testing SL 61.99?

[runfiverun]

i think atf would be a good alternative.
i have had extremly good luck using it in lubes in all weather conditions.
it does leave a little behind,which is not an issue because it is consistent.
plus it's isn't all slippery it does have a little friction to it.

i think if we concentrate on the oils end of it first, we can tune the wax end of it later.
the wax part is gonna be as simple as blending different proportions.
from say 10% to 100%.

one good thing about springtime here is if i have a vehicle available i could shoot in 30-f [and under] and 60-f [and sometimes over] in the same day.

[geargnasher]

One of ATF's major formulation points is the amount of "grip" it imparts to the friction clutches. The ancient Type F Ford ATF was formulated to be more "grippy" than others, and would make a Hydramatic tear the fiber off the clutches. ATFs are also formulated to withstand repeated, intense shear.

Oh, and it's also highly compatible with Assemblee Goo.

I totally agree we need to really wring out the oils and fool with wax and additives later. I'll try ATF next.

The testing is going to have to wait on my end for a little bit, got an invite to go piggy hunting again with Trey this weekend, wouldn't miss that for the world!

Gear

[runfiverun]

i think by piggy hunting, he means "sleep in the truck till they are surrounded by pigs" then get out and start shooting as fast as possible.

[btroj]

Sounds good to me. I just hope he shoots each one using a different lube to see of one increases wounding effects.

[shooter93]

Lamar...you said..." we'll get it"....could you speed it up a bit? I'm getting older and almost out of lube and I'm seriously counting on you to send me a 100 lbs. of the PERFECT lube....smiles.

[runfiverun]

I dunno about perfect,but I think we can hit boutgoodnuff for most everything.