"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[leftiye]

You don't understand because you don't see how all of this stuff is interrelated.

Mike has explained why at least twice in the past week on this thread, although he's taking the approach of modifying the lube instead of the issue the lube turned up with his load. I think it's obvious the lube needs a tweak, too, but he's got other problems to deal with as well.Gear

It's semantics. Obviously the lube is reducing friction enough to lower pressures and wreck burning rate. Until the new lube there was no issue. May have been one looming, but with zero extra space in the case, lack of friction could easily drop initial pressures enough to ruin the load. My guess is that the goo is a really good lubricant in and of itself, and that castor oil is way overdoing it. Mineral oil too, but it is already too late. How about Flowmaster and goo and soap? Thick enough (maybe not)?

[runfiverun]

i think the castor is on the way out shortly.
my batch come out slightly different because i cut the oils down right off the bat down to @1-1/2 each.


good observation leftiye.

[geargnasher]

Leftiye, did you mean Fluidmaster, like the toilet bowl rings? I think those would be way too soft for what you asked. 50/50 soap and the Fluidmaster and nothing else makes a very good candidate for lube, but I never shot any. That should give you an idea of what that brand of bowl wax is like, imagine a really thick, sticky, stringy Vaseline.

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

As long as the lube does the same thing every time and doesn't lead, it doesn't matter where the viscosity ends up, the load can be adjusted once to re-align with the sweet spot and won't have to be changed again.

Gear

Yes, and doesn't lead... are you shooting 20 round strings from a clean barrel every time you test a lube? It appears, if the viscosity is too low, the lube will be blown out ahead of the boolit and may shoot a good five shot group from a clean, cold barrel; however, with continued fire, muzzle fouling and group size increases. Lately, I've been shooting 20 round strings and checking muzzle conditions after every five shots. The most successful lubes I've shot within the last few months are firm lubes that stabilize the muzzle condition quickly and maintain that condition during the entire 20 round string. Unfortunately, I can only test about once a week, so I'm learning sloooooowly.

MJ

[geargnasher]

MJ, what you're talking about gets complex and in a lot of instances hypothetical since all we have to go on is the aftermath of shooting and how things fit together beforehand.

I don't think even a wax with a single-digit needle penetration value will all stay in the grooves if there's a lot of pre-engraving blowby. That sort of blowby even causes throat leading, and copper fouling when using copper-jacketed bullets, so unless your lube is harder than copper it won't be able to resist blowing out to whatever degree your static fit allows.

Lube groove design and static fit are probably the biggest factors concerning blowby and lube blowout. Now, the other consideration, which is probably more what you're talking about, is how the lube blown down the bore ahead of the boolit deposits, and how it behaves when run over by the boolit. Viscosity of the lube, and it's ability to change viscosity rapidly, probably has a great deal to do with overall performance of the load through a barrel heat cycle. I can see a stiff lube with a high specific heat being a problem on a cold day if a few spatters get blown out in front. Carnauba Red on a cold morning, anyone?

Honestly, the only lubes I've encountered that tend to accumulate as a trend through a variety of guns over time contain either Alox or Moly, although quite a few combinations of gun/load/lube/temperature have set up distinct purging cycles every three to ten rounds, and with the Longhorn lube in particular, might take more than ten shots to begin demonstrating the cyclic purging events.

The 20-round test string standard we established was based on observations of number of shots required to see a "season" effect of a new lube in a freshly and thoroughly cleaned bore. It usually takes three to ten rounds for things to "settle in", and the second ten can be shot for a more true indication of what the lube will do. A few days off and another 20 through the UN-cleaned gun tells us a lot about residuals changing when the first shot or two is fired. For comprehensive evaluation, do these 40 rounds at either extreme and the median of the temperature range you expect to encounter, and also at the extreme of humidity you expect.

With regard to bore condition all the way through, and particularly the muzzle, the soft soap lubes have done this with one shot, every time, every formula I've tried that qualifies as "soft soap lube". Problem is, just like with SL-61, it seems to be TAKING one shot to get there, then it's fine for as long as you want to keep shooting, until the gun cools down. Moisture might be doing something there, or at least might have contributed yesterday, it was one of those days where you can't dry greasy metal with brake cleaner because it just frosts over with condensation due to the metal dropping below the dewpoint. But I really think SL-61 is just too slippery yet.

Gear

[Bigslug]

Lube groove design and static fit are probably the biggest factors concerning blowby and lube blowout. Now, the other consideration, which is probably more what you're talking about, is how the lube blown down the bore ahead of the boolit deposits, and how it behaves when run over by the boolit.

I said it about a bazillion pages ago - you REALLY need to track down a high-speed camera.

I tend to think that once lube gets blown past a boolit, it's going to STAY ahead of that boolit, and probably in a vaporized state - the blowby gasses are moving faster than the boolit can at that point, and even if the boolit obturates to seal the bore afterwards, the boolit is providing a push to the column of air inside the barrel ahead of it, probably carrying the vaporized lube.

I'm not sure how to conduct THIS test, or what specifically to test FOR, but it might be worth applying high speed video to different barrel lengths to get a better idea of what the lube is doing where. I tend to think the only valid way would be to progressively chop back a sacrificial barrel so it would be known for certain that length would be the only changing variable. I think by observing the gas plumes, we'd stand to learn a lot about the sealing effects of both lube, obturation, and the mystery of gas checks. Hell, we'd probably learn a lot about how different powders work when applied to diffferent BHNs.

[geargnasher]

Bigslug, you're absolutely right about some million-frame-rate videos of the muzzle helping a bunch with understanding what happens. This has been discussed many times, even once someone polled for interest in such due to having possible access to such, but it never materialized.

I don't really know what happens, but I DO know that if lead dust can deposit in the bore as the result of a proven pre-obturation leakage, then lube can too.

Having watched numerous high-frame-rate films of jacketed bullets, shotgun payloads, and .22 rimfire exiting muzzles, I can say that the column of blowby seems to move at the same speed as the bullet, but I also suspect that the particles in the column out in front of the projectile in the bore can still fall out of 'suspension' along the way and stick to the sides of the bore.

The point-blank "jettison" tests I do seem to tell a LOT about what's going on, and when it's happening. Here's my take on the usual things that I observe having checked a lot of different pistols and rifles:

1) Intact ribbons of clean lube flung off in the first few feet obviously stayed in the grooves until some time after the muzzle, probably only "spun off" by inertial forces after leaving the barrel. This means that at least one groove never experienced blowby, and the lube didn't liquify for some reason (lack of exposure to pressure, heat, or really robust lube composition). Muzzle blast didn't do much to it, either.

2) Clean mist or wet lube spatter (brightly dyed red, yellow, or blue lubes show it best) tells me the lube liquified going down the bore but was effectively sealed within the grooves until depressurization/deconfinement at muzzle crown, again at least on one groove.

3) Dirty, grey spatter might be an indication of lube being blown out ahead of the boolit.

4) Combinations of the above,
a. Dirty spatter and clean chunks/ribbons, usually with two or more lube grooves indicates a possible combination of 3 and 1 and/or 2.
b. Dirty spatter and clean chunks/ribbons with only a single groove might indicate some pre-obturation blowout, some loss of obturation in the barrel, and that the lube remaining in the groove at muzzle exit wasn't liquid.
c. Clean and dirty spatter mixed might mean some of b. above, but the lube DID liquify and some made it to the muzzle while still trapped in the groove.
5) Only faint powder traces on target. You know what happened there. I rarely see this because I habitually avoid lubes that I know don't leave right away, because they usually DO leave at some point downrange and can play heck with accuracy. I've mentioned before the unusually cool day that I shot one of my pet loads at the range and the group was lousy. The 100-yard target had curls of lube on it. I softened the lube and tried it again later in similar weather, no more lube on the target and no more problems. I started doing jettison testing after that little incident.

Jettison tests tell a story, but interpreting what the patterns are telling us is probably more intuitive than scientific.

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

Jettison tests tell a story, but interpreting what the patterns are telling us is probably more intuitive than scientific.

Gear

Yes, until we can gather more evidence. However, I think it is unlikely boolit alloy will remain in its elastic state during the entire trip down the rifle/carbine barrel (a load that starts at 40K PSI may have a muzzle pressure of only 5K PSI); therefore, assuming a good tight fit at the throat, gas leak is more likely nearer the muzzle than the chamber. Assuming a boolit that starts out .003" over groove diameter, I gotta believe (at least at this point) there's going to be gas leakage because of the twisting (shearing) dynamics through the barrel when the boolit is no longer in its elastic state (assuming it even entered its elastic state somewhere along the way). I guess I'm trying to convince myself that a firm, flexible, boolit lube (a putty, if you will) is better than a soft, greasy boolit lube... at least for my applications.

MJ

P.S. Not to throw this thread off track (so feel free to PM) but I'd like to get some more molds cut and since my issue is related to lube/lubing in the extreme, I'm contemplating whether 3 grooves is better than 2 and if there's an optimum width for driving bands vs. lube grooves. I'm working on a 185 grain '06 design with a .190" long leading band that is supposed to fill the throat (no crimp groove).

Thanks for the input.

[btroj]

Went out today to test SL61.

Temp was right at 30 degrees, wind was picking up. Forecast was for winds over 20 mph by afternoon and it was already over 10mph.

The 375 H&H had a definite first shot, cold barrel flyer each group. Barrel was cooled for 7 to 10 minutes after each group. Barrel was definitely cold to the touch at beginning of each group.

The Marlin 45-70 showed little evidence of first shot, cold barrel flyers. This didn't surprise me as that rifle has never had a tendency towards first shot flyers with any lube I have tried in it. This was more a test to see if SL61 was any worse than the lubes I had used in the past.

No leading was found. Groups were what I have come to expect from these rifles.

I made a new batch with 1/2 the oil of the previous batch. I substituted synthetic 2 stroke oil for 1/2 the castor oil. the soap, wax, and Goo were all in equal amounts. This batch feels a bit more firm than the original but is still very easy to hand lube with. It leaves a slight yet distinct oily film when handled.

This may be the last chance I get at shooting in 30 degree weather for a while. Forecast is for 69 Friday, snow will be gone, and I can get back to a regular shooting cycle.

[Edubya]

I said it about a bazillion pages ago - you REALLY need to track down a high-speed camera.

I tend to think that once lube gets blown past a boolit, it's going to STAY ahead of that boolit, and probably in a vaporized state - the blowby gasses are moving faster than the boolit can at that point, and even if the boolit obturates to seal the bore afterwards, the boolit is providing a push to the column of air inside the barrel ahead of it, probably carrying the vaporized lube.

I'm not sure how to conduct THIS test, or what specifically to test FOR, but it might be worth applying high speed video to different barrel lengths to get a better idea of what the lube is doing where. I tend to think the only valid way would be to progressively chop back a sacrificial barrel so it would be known for certain that length would be the only changing variable. I think by observing the gas plumes, we'd stand to learn a lot about the sealing effects of both lube, obturation, and the mystery of gas checks. Hell, we'd probably learn a lot about how different powders work when applied to diffferent BHNs.

This sounds like a very good way to go about it. Does anyone have an extra high speed camera that they could loan for a trial. I'd be willing to send some money toward having this experiment accomplished. It sounds like Gear has done more than his share of testing for this objective and this sacrificial barrel would take a lot of $$$, time, patience and experience. How about setting up a fund for this trial and take up a collection from the willing participants.
I would trust Gear's analysis, even over my own.

EW

[runfiverun]

i have an ugly rifle chambered in 308 and one i ain't sure what it's chambered in.
both on k-98/11 actions, neither have sights,but the 308 is pretty accurate.
it has a remington barell
i'd send them or one of them to someone if they have a camera and a hacksaw.
a chrono and a strain guage would be a definate bonus.

i was able to get some sl-61.1 down range today.
the dryer version is definatly a better way to go.

one anomoly i did notice was a slight lube star [damp spot] trying to form [right on the mouth of the muzzle] and the barest hint of an ocassional oil bead at the muzzle.
the lighter load was shooting lower.
and there was definatly no smoke even with the powder charge low enough to leave some fouling behind,and for there to be a definate "relaxation point" in the barell.
i was shooting 10 shot strings, the last two took a bit longer to shoot because of the heat shimmer in the scope.
i waited just long enough for the barell to cool down enough to hold onto.
so the testing will go on.
next up is a load bump back up to where it was.

definatly a reduction in the oils is needed.
banking left to start the circling.
oh yeah the group size..
/////////
//////// /
//// X

40 shots real size, i held the target up to the screen and filled it in.

[btroj]

Run, was that with 1/2 the oils of SL61?

My tests showed a faint lube star but it was very dry. 25 shots left more of a smudge on the end of the barrel. The Marlin 45-70 usually gets a good star because the bullet holds tons of lube but even it had just a faint bit on the muzzle after 20 rounds.

How much dryer ya gonna go?

And I always thought we circles right, not left. I must not have gotten the memo.

[geargnasher]

Good instincts on cutting the oil, Lamar, looks like it helped. Interesting that it didn't blow your groups all to heck, even with a reduced load. Even on my giant monitor that's a tight 40-round group!

Brad, thanks for "taking one for the team" in the cold and wind, we really needed to squeeze that one in while Winter still exists. I see you confirmed the wild first shots between strings that I was getting, so I'm sure now that it IS the lube and isn't a bedding issue with my levergun. I'm also glad that even though it isn't right, it wasn't terrible either in the 45.70. Interesting about the lack of huge, drippy lube stars even with boolits that seem to hold a quarter-ounce of lube each, I've had the same experience.

I'm very encouraged by it not seeming to matter how much lube the boolits hold or how many grooves are lubed, or if there's "excess", in my experience they all shoot the same. This was a BIG DEAL to me, since I've had to fool with lubing minimal grooves for one gun, all of them for the next, and even change around with the seasons to get the very best results with other lubes.

Oh, by the way, a little birdie on my shoulder whispered "cut back the trans gel percentage and make up the softness with the mineral oil". Just thought I'd share.

I'm off to make SL-61.3 same as Brad's (call it SL-61.2), only difference will be I'm going to use less trans Gel, probably drop it by one third to one half, it depends on if I can go that low and still get the grease to "make".

Gear

[runfiverun]

i cut them back 25%.
i'm seriously thinking of dropping the castor oil alltogether.
i'll probably make a half batch with out the oils.
i'll cut it 25% at a time, and try it plain just to compare.

[btroj]

61.2 is
1 ounce each Tranny Goo, beeswax, Ivory soap
1.25 ml synergic 2 stroke
1.25 ml castor oil
5 ml mineral oil

Works out to be same as 61 except 2/3 the mineral oil and 1/2 the castor with 1/2 the castor replaced with 2 stroke oil.

Hopefully the 2 stroke helps avoid the cold barrel flyers castor is prone to with the castor keeping the 2 stroke from giving purge flyers. Sort of a young/yang thing. Rather than replace castor fully, reduce it and add something with different properties that can help balance the positives and negatives of each.

Sadly, my cold weather is going away. Wait, I am sad about that? Temps here are warming up quickly and day with hits in the 30s won't be around much more.

[btroj]

Forgot to add that I had a couple lube boogers on a target. Target was at 100 yards. Didn't expect to see that.

Booger was 1/4 inch from the hole.

[runfiverun]

we are bouncing around a lot on temps too.
it snowed yesterday, was mostly sunny today and in the low 30's untill about 4:00 then it went up to 45.
i'm thinking something along the lines of maybe bumping the b-wax with some parrafin wax.
the ivory/mineral oil gel mixed with the micro-wax really,really well.
it might help here too.
the micro-wax would give it a bit more "rubbery" feeling and might really be all that's needed..

[btroj]

Does the microwax give a lube that would flow well in the Star? Sl61 sure did with minimal heat, just needed pressure.
I have lubes that go soft with a small change in temp, I have had issues in the past with hard lunes, too much heat, and a runny mess.

I wondered about the paraffin. Maybe replace a bit of the beeswax with some for a firmer lube? Not sure if that is good or not. I am kinda liking the soft, tacky nature of the stuff.

[runfiverun]

i barely had to bump the temp too and then it flowed pretty well.
the micro-wax really acted differently than b-wax did.
i think it's worth taking a look at,and at least replacing some of it for a trial.
it really takes the mineral oil well.
i'm looking to try a simple lube version of this just to see how the main players go together,it's easier to bump the ingredients around and see pretty immediate results.

[btroj]

I think the players are all on the field, just need to see what positions they will play.
The Tranny goo seems to be the missing link.

I have never played with microwax. Just never got around to spending the ones for any. What melt temp you using?