"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[bruce381]

gear 2 you can look at
try:

ketjenlube 1300
http://www.italmatch.it/cm/articoli/...chure%2001.pdf

vanlube 289
http://www.rtvanderbilt.com/TDS%20Vlbe289.pdf

[badgeredd]

I keep reading and watching and I must say about 10% is sinking in and another 20% filters in ever so slowly and the rest is WAY over my head. BUT I am learning and I still am reading so keep up the reseach and posting and perhaps the lightbulb will stay lit instead of blinking so darned much.

Edd

[btroj]

Edd, I haven't learned much sour the ingredients and how they make a lube better or worse. What I have been following is the idea that a lubes needs change during the firing cycle. The idea that a lube needs to be able to adapt to the needs of that portion of the barrel/firing sequence.

If nothing else I have learned that a good lube isn't just a pile of ingredients melted together.

[SwanShot]

I'm a newbie to casting. I have acquired a Enfield 3 band 58 cal.
I saw this, and thought, Ahha, I can read this through and learn all there is to know about lube.
Yeah, right, ah, um, I'm confused. But It's cool, I'll get there.

[runfiverun]

i re-read the whole thing when it was about 15 pages shorter just to see if we missed something and to try and track our progress.
it took me something like 20-22 hrs airc.

[Marlin Junky]

i re-read the whole thing when it was about 15 pages shorter just to see if we missed something and to try and track our progress.
it took me something like 20-22 hrs airc.

Time for a second edition after extensive editing.

MJ

[geargnasher]

Some of us cooled it for a while and tested a lot of stuff without reporting every little detail, part of the purpose was to keep meaningless post count down a bit, but really it doesn't matter, it's such a monster already! There will, hopefully, be another thread in the future entitled "extreme lube, quest fulfilled", and an entry in the lube recipe sticky.

Gear

[runfiverun]

i synapsed a lot of it in the simple lube thread
there are a lot of snippets of info all over in here.
you gotta remember we are tying a lot of this in with shooting too.
i shot some yesterday at 8-f and some today at 18-f.
as i needed a new baseline.
i have been shooting a 170 gr boolit over 44 grs of 4831-sc in my 308 the last few days.
today i tried that load again on the same targets,and also added some dacron to the load to clean things up.
still have a couple of minor things to work out [everything like uneven neck tension,a small difference in nose diameter,anything, matters now] to keep going faster but i could live with this.
i'm gonna have to break out the chrono soon.

oh the lube is the complex moly [with atf] and the complex moly made with the lyman moly mixed 50-50.

[geargnasher]

Lamar, I'm going to race you to 2400 fps with MOA accuracy in the .308, just gotta get some boolits cast up and brass made. That ought to be a good HV test. We already know of a variety of formulas that will easily handle the velocity, question is will they do it any time of year.

Gear

[runfiverun]

that IS the question.
the dacron did clean everything up nicely but it moved the holes just slightly apart.
still 5 under an inch at 100.
i need to get out there and cast a biiig run of these and get them setelling settling [yeah that's it] out.
and sort out the neck tension on this brass.
i cracked a neck today which blew a group that had the first two making an oblong hole.
the dropped shot hit the black line on the target and i didn't see it untill i walked all the way down there. [yeah,, sad face]
i can see brass is gonna be a big hurdle here.
but 2400 is NOT out of the question..
12 twist cheater.. you know i'v'e hit 2400 in my 30-30 bolt gun.
we will see what happens in the hot.

[geargnasher]

Got a big box in the mail today with six pounds of Yaley shaping wax in it, and got another box with some hBN from Eutectic, I'm going to be dangerous, now! Gotta get some Redline oil or a reasonable facsimile next, may be able to get some Motul 8002T from a Harley dealer just down the road from my oral surgeon's office who I'll be visiting later this week, that will have to do for now. Yes, I'm really stuck on the ester two-cycle oil, and Eutectic, I blame YOU!

Gear

[felix]

Lamar/Ian, because you are not shooting BR guns, shoot at 50 yards to cut condition errors in half, including recoil. Waiting for the 1/2 inch 5 shot group at circa 2400, repeated twice. Load 16 rounds; 6 for sighters / barrel conditioning. ... felix

[Marlin Junky]

...I'm really stuck on the ester two-cycle oil, and Eutectic, I blame YOU!

Gear

Ian,

Go ahead and blame Eutectic if you end up working yourself into a mad frenzy over your 2-stroke obsession; however, in case you actually prove the magical "Extreme" boolit lube ingredient is indeed ester based 2-stroke oil, I was the one that sent you the pint of Redline.

Here ya go, I already added a gallon to your shopping cart. http://www.redlineoil.com/shoppingCart.aspx

All you gotta do is check out.

MJ

[runfiverun]

that's one of the things Ian and i discussed in a p.m.
the elusive 1" group thing.
i have a couple of rifles that aren't that good with jaxketed.
repeatable and consistent...yes, 1" rifles....no.
i'm happy with a velocity/accuracy trade-off just like with j-words i don't need 3200 in my 25-06- 3,000 is much more accurate and just as effective on target.
that's a happy trade-off to me.

the 2400 fps is realistically about my upper limit with accuracy [while ballancing the alloy for hunting] in a 10-twist 30 cal rifle.
if i can't put a deer down with a 166.5gr boolit at 23-2400 fps i'm in trouble.
plus once i get to whatever point i get to, i can then run the gamut of lube testing much better.

i think we are pretty close to something that is gonna warrent the higher vel. testing anyway.

[Eutectic]

Gear,

It would be nice to have a comparison between Motul 800 2T Off Road ester (maybe even the slightly higher vis 'Racing') and the Red Line ester you have been using. You might get more for your money too, as I couldn't get more than 1% or 2% reduction in weight with the Motul at 300-350F for 15 minutes... It was smoking slightly and I didn't want to try hotter.

I am looking for a sticky, inert, putty-like substance. Preferably non-lubricating. Also insensitive to getting harder in the cold or thinner in the heat. THIS 'substance' can then be 'lubricated' with various amounts of ester oil for a starter for slick but not too slick!
Below zero testing has taught me that both cold start behavior and fouling get worse and worse as the mercury drops. I don't think anything we have formulated so far would go very long without cleaning if best accuracy is wanted at double digit below.

Gun and ammo saturated to the same below zero temps has also taught me a lot. Nothing works well as a carrier (so far) at double digit below temps.... hence my thoughts on that inert viscosity indifferent 'putty' mentioned above..
This all said, a warmer gun and warmer ammunition will shoot accurately in double digit minus with close scrutiny on keeping temps uniform during the shooting. The biggest problem then is heat waves or distortion seen through the scope. (sight picture)

Some may thing bitter cold doesn't matter and maybe it doesn't for most. My thoughts are getting the full range if we can so whatever we attempt our lube formulation works!

Something like hBN may be useful as a friction modifier after we get this far.

I repeat myself (again) ...... something still unused is missing from our formulation.!!

Eutectic

[felix]

A 7 MPH cross wind across the barrel eliminates the heat distortion! But, can you handle a cross wind of any MPH at minus 20? That's way outa' my league. ... felix

[Eutectic]

A 7 MPH cross wind across the barrel eliminates the heat distortion! But, can you handle a cross wind of any MPH at minus 20? That's way outa' my league. ... felix

That's a 'chill factor' of right around -38F below Felix!

I think fun would be heading rapidly towards 'torture' in that outing!

Eutectic

[runfiverun]

you wanna see those heat waves disappear.
next time you see them [and you will in the cold] swing your rifle down to the 300 yd targets over the big expanse of snow and re-focus.
walla no more heat waves.
they are still there you just can't see them because you don't have the dark backround to show them to you.
it's amazing how easy/quickly they pop up in the cold.

that middle modifier is something we have been tracking down for a bit now.
i have been using the soy candle wax and gear is using the shaping wax and vaseline.
the simple lube is using the vaseline too as the middle vi modifier.
it's also the hurdle, a better grade or a replacement would be a big step.
a combination of micro-waxes might be the ticket for getting the silly putty feeling.
i have been working with mineral oil/sodium stearate as a micro wax modifier as it doesn't do much more than change the micro-wax to a softer plastic state and fill it's pores up.
there is the need for a metal powder in here too as a filler/bandaid flow agent.
i'm just not sure what to go with.
something like boron nitride/moly powder/or even a zink powder would fill the bill.
i could add it at the gel stage of the wax and mix it in while everything cools down to keep it in suspension.

[geargnasher]

Gear,

It would be nice to have a comparison between Motul 800 2T Off Road ester (maybe even the slightly higher vis 'Racing') and the Red Line ester you have been using. You might get more for your money too, as I couldn't get more than 1% or 2% reduction in weight with the Motul at 300-350F for 15 minutes... It was smoking slightly and I didn't want to try hotter. I remember you mentioning that, and I was a bit puzzled because all of the synthetics I've played with had about a 25% solvent in them, something like naptha or paint thinner that easily cooked off in ten minutes at 300F or less leaving a much more viscous liquid behind an no more "solvent" odor.

I am looking for a sticky, inert, putty-like substance. BINGO BINGO BINGO! That's what I mentioned many pages back, it just needs to be a substance with some basic qualities, principally that of being temperature/viscosity insensitive and inert. Doesn't matter what the ingredients are, except that the end result has the stable qualities we seek. Plasticized waxes have that quality, but not at all temperatures. Preferably non-lubricating. Also insensitive to getting harder in the cold or thinner in the heat. THIS 'substance' can then be 'lubricated' with various amounts of ester oil for a starter for slick but not too slick! In truth, the waxes really do the lubricating. The oils are just modifiers to the "substance" to get it to flow properly. I don't believe a thin oil and non-lubricating carrier will work well, remember the tests I did with only Ivory soap and Bullplate, Bentone and ATF, Bentone and Bullplate, Micro-talc and ATF, Soap and ATF, and the Lithium greases that I "concentrated" by soaking out the oil, they didn't work well at all and even gave some leading unless I added a minimum of 25% beeswax to it. The wax does the job, the oil is just there to make it plastic and flow, add some film strength for boundary conditions (boolit lube operates pretty much on the ragged edge of "not even there" anyway), and the metal soaps make the whole mess more physically stable at temperatures where the wax base falters into very soft or even liquid. I don't see the metal soaps having any benefit whatsoever in the cold.
Below zero testing has taught me that both cold start behavior and fouling get worse and worse as the mercury drops. I don't think anything we have formulated so far would go very long without cleaning if best accuracy is wanted at double digit below.

Gun and ammo saturated to the same below zero temps has also taught me a lot. Nothing works well as a carrier (so far) at double digit below temps.... hence my thoughts on that inert viscosity indifferent 'putty' mentioned above..
This all said, a warmer gun and warmer ammunition will shoot accurately in double digit minus with close scrutiny on keeping temps uniform during the shooting. The biggest problem then is heat waves or distortion seen through the scope. (sight picture)

Some may thing bitter cold doesn't matter and maybe it doesn't for most. My thoughts are getting the full range if we can so whatever we attempt our lube formulation works!

Something like hBN may be useful as a friction modifier after we get this far.

I repeat myself (again) ...... something still unused is missing from our formulation.!!

Eutectic

Part of what's missing might be Cetyl Esters, or maybe some sort of 200F melt-point polymer which has the same lubricating properties at any temperature below it's melt point. Problem there is getting it on a boolit or blending with a wax without it being too brittle to work. I messed with Vybar off and on and it will not work at all with any wax, but can be combined with an oil to plasticize it, but that lowers the melt point to about that of Vaseline by the time it's softened enough to use as boolit lube. If the right polymer were used, I'm thinking a medium-density polyethylene of some sort, it could work, but that's way, way out of my capabilities.

I'm still thinking that we can get all but the most extreme cold performance we want from a sodium-soap lube, so I'm going to keep going in the direction of Longhorn/ester Felix with carnauba and Joe's lube with petroleum wax, petrolatum, heavy oil, soap, and a touch of ester oil.

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

Would someone please publish the recipe for Joe's lube in the "Just the facts: Lube recipes" thread.

Thank you,
MJ