"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[GUNWHISPERER]

Has anyone tried Tungsten Disulfide? or Hex Boron Nitride?

[Eutectic]

it's a good test for gun oils and such too though.

Thanks Run.... I meant to mention that and forgot. All my mules are lubed with straight Dexron III. I have had no lock time problems or light primer strikes. All loads sound fine so far. I think Dexron III is a good gun oil and seems to work great on a patch between boolit lube changes as well.

Eutectic

[runfiverun]

much colder and you'll switch to clean with a wipe of white gas...
yeah atf cut with acetone works well untill the super cold too.

[runfiverun]

Has anyone tried Tungsten Disulfide? or Hex Boron Nitride?

there have been some trials with it, look back a page at eutetics recipes.
there is a t/l type recipe using hbn about 10 pages back.
the metals are enhancers we are still sorting out base ingredients.
and actual barell conditions.
eutetic has found out why i have preferred dexron atf as a lube ingredient.
and use it as my cold weather modifier if it isn't part of the lube allready.

[geargnasher]

I think Dexron VI has a pour point of -40F, as do many of the synthetics. Super-cold is where they shine, that's why I've been so intent on pursuing as much "synthetic" stuff as possible in the lubes, there's a point where hydrocracked oils just don't cut the mustard any more, even though they perform almost as well as the synthetics in the heat.

Working on machinery at 20F INSIDE out of the wind just about kills me, makes every bone and joint in my body hurt, and the entire-body ache starts after a couple of hours from being knotted up and tense from shivering. I'm like a chihuahua, below 75F and I start getting chills.

Gear

[runfiverun]

the problem i have seen with them is the slippery factor.
you have to be very moderate in their use.

[geargnasher]

the problem i have seen with them is the slippery factor.
you have to be very moderate in their use.

Amen. Some synths sure don't like any kind of petroleum wax, either.

Gear

[Eutectic]

Some more COLD Stuff....

I woke up with a headache... Probably thought too much about thick, gooey, nasty, carborized Castor Oil! At least I will blame it on that! I wiped out both 'mules' from yesterday with a patch of Ed's Red and then a dry patch. Man! The black goo was thick on that heretofore clean patch! No wonder those 10 below cold starts were squirrelly! Like I said I blame the Castor but the Ivory isn't home free either!

Now I don't have the small saved up samples of different lube formulations that Gear or Run have I'm sure! But that said I have quite a few just since posting on this thread. Again like Gear, I've never got the 2-stroke ester oil out of my thoughts either! So I dug through my samples and came up with a EsterBee350 with Carnauba.... 4% worth... I had some with 2% but it wasn't there. Sometimes I modify a sample to something else so that is probably what happened. My BAC formula has 4% Carnauba and it passed -4F the other day.... Something about ester, Alox 350, and Carnauba that helps but I sure don't know what it exactly is!

So I lubed some boolits up with it!

This morning was seven below Zero..... A light frost was coming down. (Old Montana boys sometimes call the small gritty below zero snow... 'frost') I would learn a few things this mornin'!
I started with the .35 Rem. (I had fouled it yesterday with the EsterBee350 4%Carnauba) The first shot was right to point of aim. I waited almost 2 minutes and shot round two down to the 70 yard target. 7/8" high.... I went in the house for a 5 minute thaw. Round three touched the first (cold start) boolit hole. I waited a couple minutes and shot the fourth round.... It almost kissed the 7/8" high hole! Huh?
My mind spun as I was in another 'thaw'. I thought about coffee.... but I had enough. I knew below zero that both these 'mules' shot right at an inch lower that tests at 9 degrees above. Humm? Now we all know about letting a hot gun cool between shots when testing for groups; but what about an already freezing gun???

I took the .32-20 out. I had the last of my older Hornady gaschecks loaded up and also some brand new Hornady ones. They were all dead soft (fully annealed) What difference does this make some might ask? Well, I used the new gaschecks without anneal in testing and got a 2" group on my BAC -4F test. One would think the lube failed maybe? I wasn't sure.... The next morning (also minus -4F) the same load shot minute of angle all things the same other than using my older annealed gaschecks. I continued to use the older checks, annealed some new ones, but had run out of old at this moment today... I thought about it as I thawed by the wood stove. "Could a sub-zero load take even longer between shots to 'normalize' the gun temp saturation back to the prior shot? The 5 minute thaw thing worked pretty good so I put a full 5 minutes between shots with the .32-20 using the new batch of annealed gaschecks. The group was 5/8" at 70 yards. I was really pleased as each shot was also like a new setup as I went inside for the 5 minutes. I can't wait to try to put those two .35 Remington groups into one! Nice, nice group.... But it was one inch left! Why? I could write a book on the variables I have learned about gaschecks! Why? I wish I knew. I'll move the scope meanwhile (when it warms up mind you)

I shot the same lube in the .45 Colt in my 'wetting' test. This is the coldest wetting test I've done. It passed in flying colors. So I'll add this lube to the other two.

The next couple of mornings hover around zero so I'll wait for a cold day. Some might say zero is good enough to cold test... But below zero is much worse I have learned for things changing with just a few degrees difference. The difference between 9F and -10F below shows as much change as probably a 40 degree difference would in summer temps.

I can't wait for a -20F morning! Or even colder! (I saw -37F in March one time.) Let's see which of these three lubes is really 'cold tough' !!

Eutectic

[geargnasher]

That's EXTREME! Now we're getting somewhere. I identify with your frustrations of finding other "flaws" in the system while just trying to test lube. You think you have a load and process down pat for your gun, but if you keep shooting it long enough and scrutinizing groups, little gremlins will show up and take you down a side street for a bit, like your gas checks.

I don't have the answer for you on the annealed checks, but if I had to wager I'd put money on it having to do with the thin, weak necks and how that affects the way the back half of the boolit makes its way into the throat. Harder checks may not allow a good dynamic seal under initial start pressure as the boolit begins to squirt into the throat. Also, the annealed checks might be flaring out a bit on the sides under initial pressure and helping the boolit base stay centered in the chamber neck as the case neck expands to the chamber neck walls.

Gear

[runfiverun]

remember what i wrote about steel becoming brittle in the cold.
other things change too.
water content in the stock can change what happens between shots from minor amounts of heat as the woods cell structure flex's and contracts.
only they change differently than humidity alone will affect them.
you might only have one side of the cell stretch.
or different parts of the barell are expanded at differnt temperature zones.
you only have friction heat in some areas and powder heat in others.
gotta love the effects of the cold

[btroj]

Heck with the lube or barrel in that kind of cold. I am more concerned with the effects on ME.
Shooting is supposed to be fun. In no way is sub zero temps even close to fun.

I think the observation that the change from 10 to -10 is like 40 to 60 in summer is interesting. Shows how there is cold and there is COLD. I once read an article in a magazine by a guy from Alaska who shot varmints in the winter. He commented that building a small shelter and getting temps inside to Zero made it quite comfortable when it was -30 outside. Perspective is everything.

[runfiverun]

it's not really "fun" it does however build focus.
easy to see someone breathing too.

[felix]

No problem, Ian. You got it down! Naturally, the seal must be dynamically made to allow the barrel and boolit reTRact to their original static dimensions, such that the seal be tight enough, or loose enough, to perpetuate an identical acceleration curve for each shot. It becomes obvious that the primer, powder and neck selection must be balanced to make that seal exactly repeatable. ... felix

Yes, it might just be impossible to create constant curves when considering a range of minus something to plus something. Might have to delineate by application as well, like what was implied just above. Who in their right mind is going out to play with scrappy targets (groups or shotgun shells) in proverbial "hunting" weather? ... felix

[runfiverun]

No problem, Ian. You got it down! Naturally, the seal must be dynamically made to allow the barrel and boolit reTRact to their original static dimensions, such that the seal be tight enough, or loose enough, to perpetuate an identical acceleration curve for each shot. ... felix

i hope tim sees this.
this is part of what i was attempting to explain in the simple lube thread.
felix put it much better than i did in three posts.

[geargnasher]

Yes, good explanation, Felix. Sumpthin' about years of writing code tunes one's ability to distill a concept to its essence and then write it in one line of code such that it can be translated into any language with exactly the same meaning. Visualizing a concept is difficult for some, describing it is difficult for most, and communicating it through only writing is tough for just about anybody.

We have a multifold difficulty with cast, lube is only part of it. One must have consistent friction from case neck to muzzle exit, but also must have consistent shape to the pressure curve, and must have consistent metal movement anywhere metal is liable to move, which is anything forward of the tang. One thing affects another, like amount of pressure lost around a boolit before it moves changes the bore surface (mist of lube going ahead of the boolit), and also changes the amount of availiabl e lube remaining in the grooves. It doesn't take much of a change in neck clearance, neck anneal, gas checks, or seating depth to make big impacts in the way a load shoots. The dynamics of firing fixed ammunition are very complex and can be quite frustrating to learn. Then try to make it all work in a 120 degree temperature window that covers both sides of the water phase change and it's a recipe for madness.

Gear

[btroj]

Managed to finally get out and shoot today. Needed to sight in the new scope on the 375 and see how the soft bullets would do in the 45-70.

After 6 rounds to adjust scope on 375 I let it sit and cool back down. Temp was 35, it was a bit breezy but not bad. It was certainly not a day where I intended to hang around for hours at the bench.

Using Bens Red for lube I saw no signs of first shot cold barrel flyers at 100 yards. There were no hints of lube on the target either, something I always got with Carnuba Red. I fired a 10 shot group and other than a couple that were put of the group because of my piss poor neck technique it was a 1.75 inch group. I could see no trends in where shots went- the group wasn't moving in any one direction. I viewed is as a sign that the lube wasn't causing any ill effect as it pertains to accuracy.

I think that with some work this rifle will shoot even better than this. Having a scope makes a huge difference.

I was also pleasantly surprised at how well the 45-70 Marlin handled some darn soft bullets. I cast some 350 RD from my NOE mould using 50/50 range scrap/lead pipe. They tested 9.5 BH. On my Canin Tree tester. With a gas check and MML lube I got 2 inch groups from both HP and solid nose bullets at 100. No lead at all after 20 rounds. Load was 24 gr 2400 with a bit o Dacron filler. Should be right in the 1400 fps window. The HP would be a hammer on deer from that alloy at that speed. Goes to show that with a decent lube and decent fit you can shoot some pretty soft lead.

I need to get out and do more testing. The Bens Red looks to be good in cold weather. I haven't tried it in really hot weather, yet.

[Marlin Junky]

The Bens Red looks to be good in cold weather. I haven't tried it in really hot weather, yet.

Did you make it verbatim (recipe) and what was the consistency like with ambient in the 30's?... i.e., will a pea-sized ball of it spread out evenly on your finger tips or does it tend to break up and be somewhat crumbly?

Thanks,
MJ

[btroj]

Mine was made exactly per the recipe except I measured by weight, not volume. Each ingredient has a density below 1 so the difference will be minimal whether done mpby weight or by volume.

Mine is pretty soft and sticky at room temp

I have not looked at how a ball of it handles cold. I have a feeling it will be a bit more firm than at room temp but won't even come close to being brittle or dry feeling.

I do find it to be a bit soft and sticky when temps are over 60 but so far I haven't noticed any ill effects from that.

[felix]

Goes to show that with a decent lube and decent fit you can shoot some pretty soft lead having a substantial girth. ... felix addendum to btroj basis.

[btroj]

Did he just call my bullets fat?

Ya, caliber does make a difference. A 45 cal bullet can work well from a softer alloy than a 22 can even when loaded to the same velocity.