"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[runfiverun]

scott:
the castor wax was one me and gear discussed at length, but as a replacement to beeswax,
then went to the whole synthetic side.
the last link i posted is a full synthetic i have used a couple of times that is showing promise, and there will be more to follow.
we are gathering some better materials to work with.

the paper thing is just that, a thing.
it's like pulping it and punching out cups then sliding them over the boolit and squeezing the whole thing together then letting it dry idea i have had.
but no real equipment to work with or the desire to really to follow up on it.

just like the copper coated stuff, i have enough of those laying around to wear out a couple of bbls in 4-5 calibers, but why bother.

i wanna push the boundarys with the plain ole boolit.
the synth speramcetti i take to be an atf like fluid.

[Elkins45]

So why not paper dust (very short fibers) saturated with a low viscosity grease and blended to a consistancy that still flows thru a sizer?

Next question: how to make the paper dust consistently and in sufficient quantities?

[runfiverun]

paper can be an abrasive depending on what is used to make it and how white it is.
not all papers are quite equal in thier wood content either.
using paper to thicken up an oil or grease could work, mixing it into suspension could be done the same way i mix my moly into the carrier mix.
too short and you then end up with a suspension and no benefits except as a filler.
controlling the size of the fibers would be crucial, too long and the lube chunks off unevenly.

paper patching works because the paper protects the lead core from the bbl, it is then ripped to confetti at the muzzle sending the lead core on it's way.
for smokeless applications the core is large enough to grab the rifling,and the paper is still lubed.

other than having not tried it.
i can't see any reason it wouldn't work. with a proper selection of grease as a lube, you could use paper as a binder.
will it work in a broad temperature range [dunno]
i know guar comes in a pretty consistent length, you have to control whether it is straight and relaxed or balled up with ph while it is in a liquid.

[geargnasher]

I've been studying this to the point it's getting screwy in my head. Looks like there's more than one grade of fumed silica, and like I found out a couple of years ago, it can be a mild abrasive and is used in toothpaste as well as milkshakes. Having trouble now finding the article I read on it being used in EP grease as a thickener. I'm also starting to lean away from the PAO synthetic lube and more toward PAG lubes, although I think the PAG might be more susceptable to water absorption. I used a lot of PAG blends in automotive AC systems and it's good stuff. ISO 100 PAG refrigerant oil is about the same apparent viscosity at 0F as it is at 150F, all it needs is a compatible thickener and it could be tried. Still thinking about beeswax and PAG since I mentioned it a few posts back, mainly because I'm not so sure that beeswax is the limiting factor.

Some lubes with beeswax carriers are good to -20F and lower, and also work in 110+ weather in other formulas that don't seem to have a barrel temperature limit to their performance. It seems that the stuff we put IN the beeswax to make it slick has the narrow temp range that affects the barrel condition and overall viscosity of the ju-ju.

I'm going to try the stuff that Bruce is sending, I know the fumed silica they use is for lubricants and therefor couldn't be abrasive if mixed with the right oil, and the PAOs are really good lubricants too, only some real testing will tell for certain. I plan to try fumed silica and both PAO oil and PAG oil to see if I can make a decent paste, and the "wetting" agents might help too.

Bruce, is that wetting additive compatible with PAG-type oils, or is it formulated just for PAOs?

Gear

[runfiverun]

well with beeswax being mostly alcohols it carries a broad range of oils and modifiers.
when i add lanolin to the mix to make it more flexible it lowers the melt point also.

i have been working on the use of carnuba with the grease and just what it's role would be in my head.
is it there to provide body to the lube, shine to the bbl,or as a binder because of it's fat content.
more than likely it's there to make the bbls shine and give the "look at it" factor.

i would think that even a fumed silica would be less abrasive than paper especially one with a higher clay/titanum content.
the silica is in a grease for the shock loads [pressure] i don't think we need to worry about heat as much as gas cutting.
i doubt the silica will be affected by that so much, the rest will act as a heat sink of sorts flowing and suspending the silica.
i am still looking at this as a seal,and the oil as a bore conditioner.

[shooter93]

Lamar....are your synthetics organic based? I think I can get the temp range ok but how it really works out as a lube rmains to be seen yet. I actually don't think there is a wonder lube possible atleast not yet....to many varibles to cover ranging anywhere from bullet fit to barrel length. I do think it may be possible to make an "adjustable" formula that is realatively easy to adjust the quanity of one ingredient or another to cover the varibles.

[geargnasher]

Shooter93, you're sure right about being able to make something that does the whole temp range and still not shoot. As far as "adjustable" formulas, R5R and I have posted numerous times the formulas we use to cover the whole temp spectrum, we have it down pretty much to one formula with one or two slight tweaks for winter or summer. His lube is very complex, I just use Felix lube with some slight modifications. They both work very, very well but don't cover the whole gamut without adjustment. I think the desire to have one think in the sizer for all applications, year-round, and not have to store two varieties of loaded ammunition is driving this quest the most. That and you can't leave Redneck boolit casters unsupervised with the internet and a shop full of odd automotive and industrial chemicals and not expect minds to wander....

Gear

[runfiverun]

i can adjust now.
but like gear said, i think we can broaden the window some and not have to make the changes from winter to summer.
the stuff i am using is ready made, with a hydrocarbon base and glycol solids.
but it is one of the lubes that goes dry when heated [to 450 or so] instead of melting.
i have just started testing it in the rifle,but it works as a boolit lube, how far up and down is to be seen yet.
this home made stuff we will be doing shortly will have to be at least as good.
i am hoping to be able to modify a full synthetic at some point from some ordered stuff and off the shelf grease.

[bruce381]

I will send you guys the powdered gellants and then mix into whatever base (syn, mineral, felix lube whatever) want, they will gell more the more you heat them or 'shear" them that increses the gelling effect.

will try to send in a day or so.

[geargnasher]

Bruce, you're a gentleman and a scholar, thank you very much for your help and input.

One question keeps burning in my mind and I can't seem to find the answer: What's going to happen to the silicate thickeners when subjected to 50Kpsi and 3500F for an instant? This has me thinking the bentone gellants would be better, but I really don't know if my worries about the stability of the silica thickeners are well-founded.

It would be just too dang easy to mix fumed silica and PAG oil together for a lube, no worries about zinc and sulfur compounds and other additives breaking down and forming acids in the presence of the powder combustion byproducts.

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

bruce381,

Would your powdered gellants thicken a grade 2 Lithium Complex grease similar to Mobil 1 Synthetic and if so, how would one combine the gellants with the grease? Currently, I'm using said grease (it's actually a Wally-World knock off) in my wax based boolit lube; however, it needs to dissolved in Vaseline before I can easily blend it into the wax.

MJ

[bruce381]

other than the clay (bentone) and silica and simple Al sterate all other thickeners are made in situ as in in the reactor blend tank they are not really avalible as a thickener only that you add oil there maybe but I do not know of any.

The thickeners I have are mixed into the "base" oil and then highly sheared to fully activtate the gelling effect as such 5-7% will take a 10wt motor oil to a #2 chasis grade grease BUT the shearing mixing is a problem to do in small samples.

bruce

[Marlin Junky]

Just wanted to say thank you and I hope interest in this subject doesn't fizzle out. I'm running low on boolit lube but would like to see which direction this takes before I purchase a 10# slab of BW-431 (http://www.shopblendedwaxes.com/180F...lline-Wax.html).

MJ

[badgeredd]

Have any of you guys tried the grease (?) stick from the railroad know as Cooling Compound or hot box lube?

Edd

[geargnasher]

MJ, the Mobil 1 has a lithium complex thickener system, and like Bruce said you can't readily just get the stuff and add more to the grease on your kitchen stove. Also, my understanding is that Bentone is not compatible with any other thickener, and that lithium complex and silicates might not get along either, although they'd probably get along better in grease than a calcium or aluminum stearate thickener would. You have to be careful blending greases, usually the non-compatible soaps react with each other and break down, making a thinner grease, but sometimes, as R5R found out, they thicken up and get crumbly.

This isn't dying by a long shot, lots going on behind-the-scenes, and a lot of the direction of the testing will depend on what concoctions R5R and I are able to come up with using some of the samples Bruce381 was kind enough to ship out a day or two ago.

If I come up with something that I like, I'm going to ask a few of you to try some if you like in known-good loads, just changing the lube. It would be nice to have someone in AK or somewhere it's still cold to do some tests before winter, I think I have the hot part covered for the next few months! Hopefully by next spring we'll at least know a lot more about what DOESN'T work if nothing else.

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

Have any of you guys tried the grease (?) stick from the railroad know as Cooling Compound or hot box lube?

Edd

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=104349

MJ

[geargnasher]

EDD, they use block grease on the steam railroads, it's like an 8+ on the NLGI scale, hard as a rock and made from vegetable oils and sodium hydroxide. It's essentially lye soap. You can make it yourself quite easily, and make it as soft or hard as you want, but I don't think it's going to get us where we want lube-wise.

Good call MJ, you posted while I was typing. Your memory is obviously better than mine anyway!

Gear

[runfiverun]

mj
that link you posted [i believe] is the wax 357 uses for his mml lube.
you can make a pretty decent lube from it though.
my o.d. slippery lube. [ icall it that because it either comes out o.d green or o.d brown depending on what candle color i use [blue makes green, and the tan ones make o.d. brown]
take a scented candle 20-oz [remove 6 oz's from the jar]
6 rounded table spoons of jpw [reduce to 3] and three table spoons [flat spoonfulls] of finely grated ivory [dry is best]
and two tablespoons full of lucas oil treatment [plasticizer]
throw the soap,and lucas, in the jpw and reduce it down slowly in the wave [go about 1 minute at a time and stir in between]
melt the candle [minus 4 oz's] with 4 oz's of beeswax [the beeswax can be upped or lowered]
then stir the whole thing while melted [i use a hand blender].
let it cool and rest for a couple of days, then check it's viscosity.
this has worked well in the colder weather, but i have only tested it up to 65* so far.
and you can store it in the jar with the lid on.
except for the part you took out i save that for later [3 runs gives me enough to make another batch from.
i use it as a dip lube, but i'd bet it makes a nice pan lube too.
it's a bit soft when fresh but gains a little bit of hardness after a couple of days, it stays in the lube grooves well and is flung off at the muzzle.

[Marlin Junky]

r5r,

I don't want to take this thread in another direction because it is too important; however, Mike introduced me to Blended Waxes but I think he uses one of the softer blends and also adds other waxes to MML... I'll check the recipe to be sure. Nevertheless, I live in the desert and appreciate a little higher melt temp while don't mind having a couple formulae around for various ambient conditions... as long as they are visibly distinguishable.

Thank you for the recipe...

MJ

The JPW is used strictly for it's Carnauba content, correct?... please PM answer.

[badgeredd]

The reason I asked if any of had used it is I have and I have a small supply. Since you've mention block grease I was wondering if anyone had thought about what the stuff is made of. My dad was a car repairman on the NYCRR and as a kid I used to go with him on many road trips. There were 2 different brands he used, one was a Phillips 66 or Union 76 product and the other was from Texaco. They were not the same stuff. If memory serves me the one from Texaco was a bit softer and he preferred it because it worked well regardless of the ambient temperature. Just a thought...

Edd

BTW... this stuff was used well into the late sixties...I was a fireman on diesel engines in 66 to 68...